Author Topic: Starvation & Survival  (Read 31490 times)

Lyle Brotherton

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Starvation & Survival
« on: September 04, 2012, 08:35:48 AM »
The publishers of the UNM were continually asking me to write a global disclaimer for the book. I refused, nor would I agree to one by them being included in the work. Similarly, I am making no such statements here. I could have bailed at various times during this episode but for personal reasons chose not to.

‘I am starving’ I hear folk say. This is one of those ubiquitous sayings that we in the west, throw out without ever thinking about its meaning. I wonder if its origins lie in the fact that we have an abundance of food in the West, so much so that it is killing us, with heart disease, diabetes and cancer. Possibly for the reason that food is not scarce we have an irrational fear of not having 24/7 access to it? The first time I experienced going without food I know that I felt this. Unless somebody has been ill, such as with a stomach infection, how many folk have not had anything to eat for 1 day, not many I suspect? How about 2 days, 3 days+?

The first time I experienced starvation was in the frozen Artic east of Murmansk, Russia. I had been working with Spetsnaz Alpha unit, as part of my research for the UNM (the techniques of setting your skis to your intended bearing thru your baseplate compass came from these guys as did measuring slope angle). We lived in snow holes and only used tents when moving across the ice towards the White Sea. I had been out with them for three weeks; they had a further 4 weeks to continue the exercise to their RV, Mezen, NE of Arkhangelsk.

The weather throughout the trip had been excellent and we had been waiting 5 days for an airdrop of provisions, which, for no good reason, had failed to arrive. On the day I was leaving, provisions were running low, and I opted to take 3 days of rations, from the 5 we all had remaining. I was well kitted out for my journey, which would be 5 days ski-travel back to Murmansk, in addition to my rations, I was better equipped than my companions, having a Iridium satellite phone, plus a Russian military satellite phone, satnav – Garmin 60Csx – (but no spare batteries) and my PLB plus I would be nearest to civilisation if everything went wrong.

3 days in I was ‘cooking on gas’, although the weather was bitterly cold, the skies were bright and I personally enjoy this type of solitude, continually contouring and crossing frozen water at every opportunity. I had eked out my rations to cover my 5 days. Then the weather changed, and although forecast, it was much more severe than expected. The high speed winds being the biggest obstacle in this region, as effectively the front moves across the level, sparse tundra, without any hindrance.

Navigating using my map & compass, I only turned on my satnav to determine where the snow holes, that I had previously waypointed, were from our trip out. I ended up in a snow hole, 3 days travel from my objective. The storm stayed with me, effectively pinning me down in my snow hole, and I ran out of food on day 5. Weather reports were that the front was clearing and on day 6 I was able to resume my journey.

My first day without food.
For the first 24hrs I thought continually about food and had irrational thoughts, such as would my blood sugars would drop and I would become hypoglycaemic and stop functioning, even pass out! I think that this was exacerbated as I had little to do, other than keep popping my head out of the snow hole to check the weather. The plain fact was that I was simply not going to get food and I knew that I would have access to food again in probably a week at most. My stove fuel was more than enough for this maximum period (from which I got my drinking water and some heat).

On day 2 with no food I resumed my journey, having not passed out! I started to accept that, other than pangs of hunger, which came in waves, I was fine. By day 3 I was totally focussed on the job in hand and functioning perfectly, day four passed the same and I arrived back in Murmansk (3 days travel,4 days no food). I had my first meal, a type of cured fatty bacon, which is really popular in that region, and eggs (interesting how I exactly remember what I had to eat showing to me what a focus food is in my life).

The medics checked me over and measured my blood sugar, which was normal, and I had lost some weight, (I think about 3kgs). How much of this was due to the last 9 days I did not know, as the weeks before I may have been losing it working with the squad.

It was a breakwater for my thinking, because I had learned that I could function perfectly without food.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 01:14:04 PM by Lyle Brotherton »
“Opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance” - Plato

Skills4Survival

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Re: Starvation & Survival
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2012, 06:42:02 PM »
From : Biology of Human Survival (Piantadosi)

Adult can survive for weeks, even months without food, it depends on the amount of body fat (if you are healthy but are overweight, you might last longer at the very end). Stress and disease greatly reduced the time to live. Loosing more than 50% in general means you will die (healthy non-obese people). During forced march in desert conditions with no water, you can die within 8 hours.

In general, after a few days you should feel actually very good (even euphoric) and sustain yourself for an extensive period of time, if you drink sufficiently. Possible taking some salt.  I still want to test it ones.  Look on the Internet for the Minnesota Experiment..(which will not be the test I want to do of course)
Ivo

Callum

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Re: Starvation & Survival
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2012, 11:02:28 AM »
Ivo said "In general, after a few days you should feel actually very good"

Ivo, you are absolutely correct. I still continue Alpine climbing, when time permits, and have summited five of the 7000m+ peaks, where nutrition has been a very important consideration and a not dissimilar story to that of Lyle’s happened with us at Muztagh Ata 7545m, which is the second highest of the mountains on the northern edge of the Tibetan Plateau. Whilst climbing we lost everything at our base camp, and I mean everything was stolen. We had returned with all our foodstuffs depleted, in a nutshell we ate nothing for three and a half days. I remember that feeling of wellbeing that you describe Ivo and since this time I had often wondere3d if there was any physiological reason for this.


Ivo said "Stress and disease greatly reduced"

I have been recently watching BBC 2’s Horizon documentaries, featuring the series written and presented by Dr Michael Mosley and I learned the answer. It is some of the most powerful, enlightening and convincing television that I have watched for years. Moreover it has convinced me to implement a personal lifestyle change.

The program is no longer available on iplayer, but I found the episode concerned on YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3l2yexm2W0 It is brilliant.

If you want a shorter introduction there is an article from the Guardian newspaper which gives a good overview of the episode.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/2012/aug/06/eat-fast-and-live-longer

adi

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Re: Starvation & Survival
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2012, 02:53:44 PM »
Thanks for posting those links Callum, Very interesting indeed.

I have never been in a situation where starvation has been a factor but I have limited food intake on many survival courses down to that that can me foraged. Normally 3 or 5 days occasionally 7 days.

On my last jungle trip I ate 1 small cup of rice a day for 3 weeks followed by 4 nights of isolation by myself in the jungle where over the period of the 4 nights I ate 8 small grubs and one heart of palm, which I know expended a lot more energy than I gained because I had to cut the 40 meter palm down 3 times.

When I walked out of that jungle I had so much energy I felt I could conker the world. When It was time to leave I needed to collect my kit, around 40 pounds of it in total and yomped out feeling on top of the world.  I could have easily run a marathon that day.
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

Callum

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Re: Starvation & Survival
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2012, 05:02:00 PM »
Great Story Adi and I should have written like you have just how good the feeling is, totally agree with your running a marathon analogy. Until the BBC Horizon documentary, I had thought this feeling may have been due to some hallucinatory effects of low nutrition, how wrong I was.

One of the guys in the Centre is an ultra-marathon competitor, and these are over the hills. He stocks up on carbs before an event then other than fluids, stops eating 24 hours before the race and never during. I was asking him about the nav decisions he has to make, as in quick and snap decisions, and he said if anything, he feels that he navigates better under this type of stress.

Yet advice that I give, when I instruct navigation, is that if lost, sit down and have something to eat, maybe I need to readdress this and say sit down and take stock?

adi

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Re: Starvation & Survival
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2012, 06:41:42 PM »
Sit down have something to eat, make a brew or have a smoke to be honest is the best advice and here is the reason why, it comes back to fear. The realisation that we are lost causes panic, there is tones of evidence that once some people realise they are lost they run and they don't stop until something stops them. There are cases of people running into trees and knocking themselves out, running into swamps or bogs and even running off of cliffs.

There is some evidence that the brain works better under some stress and I know when I cycled: our Sunday morning rides which were just gentle rides to spin the legs out and were normally only around 100 or 150 miles, so nothing strenuous. We would stop religiously for a full English breakfast within the last 40 miles and that was the end of any intelligent ride or conversation once you got back on the bike. Not by the fact that we had eaten a large meal but because your brain just switches off. You would look at other cyclists and they would have that fixed stair at the tire. They were less aware of their surroundings and traffic and they have no spark about them. 
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

Lyle Brotherton

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Re: Starvation & Survival
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2012, 01:51:11 PM »

Callum, watched the link you provided last night, the best hours TV I have seen for years and it has made me really interested to learn more about this fascinating research. Great posting :)
“Opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance” - Plato

boogyman

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Re: Starvation & Survival
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2012, 06:24:16 PM »
Hi all - truly fascinating topic !

There is however one extra thing that I wonder. OK, once one is in the situation "have not eaten for several days" I understand that there is (or might be) a euphoric feeling, as some kind of side-effect. But is there any reverse effect once one starts eating again? Any side-effect to expect there?

Thanks,
Chris.

adi

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Re: Starvation & Survival
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2012, 06:33:09 PM »
There are if you are allergic to some foods you will know about it when you start eating it again.

People that have gone hungry for some time should start eating again under medical observation you can't just go out for a big nosh up.
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

Skills4Survival

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Re: Starvation & Survival
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2012, 07:37:11 PM »


- Depends how long, if bowel has been empty for a long time (e.g. a week) you should start slow (small amount of fruit juice and glucose solution), light digestable food small amount one go and wait, not with a french fries and a whopper XL. If you do not do that, it might come out, upside or downside (diarree) bascially making you very uncomfortable. Btw, there are risks on prolonged fastning, specailly if overweight or if you have any form of disease or health problems. I believe your kidneys take a beating, but you can get organ damage in general. You might need external feeding of protein (but this all is in case of starvation...which really is dangerous of course) If you are far into the starvation cycle you really need medical attention.

I have no experience but if it has been for a very long time (e.g. 40 days), like Adi says, medical guidance would be preferred.



Ivo

mikee

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Re: Starvation & Survival
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2012, 03:49:00 PM »
Hi guys,

Nice thread, Last year in Scotland I attended a survival course run by a well known organisation :-X(can't say - sworn to secrecy). This course was designed to make us, the students, use previous learn't skills in the usual safe environment, well they had a surprise up their sleeves :o.......they gave us a hamper with just a few vegetables, fruit teas and a couple of loafs of bread. This small hamper was our food collectively (there were 13 on the course) Its contained no added sugar and no carbs.

It was explained to us that we would have to survive on what we had been given and any food we could gather that was correctly identified, any mistakes in the identification meant we could loose kit.........anything from drinks bottle to knife :'(

My point being, after several days with no caffeine of carbs, the effects on the body were shocking. Very low energy, simple tasks took much much longer. Decision making was impaired. tempers were agrivated and the risk of injury much higher.

I don't want to go into too much detail as this would ruin the surprise for anyone who found them on this course, but suffice to say it really opened my eyes with regards to how my body reacted to being 'starved' of certain foods and also has made me think more carefully about what preparations to make when hitting the trail, coz you never know!!

M

Skills4Survival

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Re: Starvation & Survival
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2012, 06:57:25 PM »
mikee, did you also feel that after a few days you regain your energy? (if you have sufficient water?) Not fully of coarse..but better.?
Ivo

mikee

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Re: Starvation & Survival
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2012, 03:33:58 PM »
I remember my eyesight getting better (no joke)......I could spot a wild raspberry at about 100m ;D. As for energy I think I got used to it...it kinda levelled off - the big change was when I ate some meat again - which really showed the necessity for hunting meat if your in the wild for a prolonged period. Almost instant heat and energy replenished.

I'll dig out the diary that I kept and see if I made any notes about it. The thing I remember most was the task we had been given where very hard work, boat/raft building and crossing 50m wide river, then getting fire going and needing to dry out - all things we kinda take for granted when on a full stomach but man when running on empty its completely different.....it def becomes more psychological!!

I'll look out the diary and let you know.


Lyle Brotherton

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Re: Starvation & Survival
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2012, 03:46:57 PM »
Interesting you post this Mikee as I am on day two of a three and a half day fast.

You should not really find a loss of energy until after day 5 by not eating, and many nutritionists reckon it is up to 8 days. More likely I suspect is was sleep deprivation. Some years ago I was subject to sleep deprivation whilst training, after day 3 I was making serious errors of judgement and by day 5, which was when the exercise ended, a sort of delirium had set in!
“Opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance” - Plato

Skills4Survival

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Re: Starvation & Survival
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2012, 05:48:35 PM »
With sleep deprivation you basically go insane. Also, intensive physical exercise also kind of ensures you have less of a feel that you need food. E.g. I am never hungry during a 80km walk or during hiking, most of the time...after that. Doing not that much will for sure make you hungry, already in the first day (well hungry...is relative of course). So...if you sleep less in day one and two...I believe you will feel weak and unconcentrated, more due to lack of sleep I would say, certainly if you have been busy during the day.

Ivo