Author Topic: Starvation & Survival  (Read 11949 times)

Lyle Brotherton

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Re: Starvation & Survival
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2012, 06:37:09 PM »
Ivo,  this explains a lot ;) On a serious note when I was shown the test questions I was asked after day three, it really shocked me just how badly I did.
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Callum

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Re: Starvation & Survival
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2012, 08:15:36 AM »
Lyle, thought you had already fasted when you stared Mosely's regime?

Lyle Brotherton

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Re: Starvation & Survival
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2012, 09:18:35 AM »
Yes Cal, back in September after watching BBC 2’s Horizon documentary, that you recommended (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3l2yexm2W0), I contacted my GP and asked if he would check my KSI’s (Key Risk Indicators):

1. Bloods glucose
2. LDL (Low density lipid)
3. BP (Blood pressure)
4. IGF1 (Insulin-like growth factor 1)

I already knew my own weight and BMI (Body Mass Index).

Whilst I was aware of the value of tests 1-3, I had not heard of 4, and now understand the value of the IGF signaling pathway in its pathogenic role in cancer, many studies having demonstrasted that increased levels of IGF lead to increased growth of existing cancer cells

I was interested in trialling the 5/2 regime (5 days’ normal eating, two days ultra-low carbohydrate days per week) as discussed in the documentary, and wanted empirical data to substantiate its efficacy, or otherwise, on myself.

His reply to me was pathetic, whinging about costs and that as a mountaineer he knew I was fit anyway. This answer exemplifies general medicine’s poor approach to primary healthcare and preventive medicine in this country. So I found a private clinic in Edinburgh who conducted the tests, after which I initiated the 3˝ day fast then went onto the 5/2 regime; I found it a remarkably easy diet to follow.

After 5 weeks I returned to the clinic and had the same tests repeated, the results were startling, so much so that I decided to make this diet a permanent lifestyle change. Even the physician at the clinic was amazed at the dramatic improvement of my KSI’s.

My last trip to the USA, for various reasons, threw my regime, and now back home I decided to kick start the process again. Having now read a great deal more about fasting, and personally experienced the wellbeing effect, in addition to the aforementioned clinical changes, it made sense.
“Opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance” - Plato

Callum

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Re: Starvation & Survival
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2012, 10:30:21 AM »
Thorough research as ever Mr B and the prompt I needed to test this regime. Whilst I am fit and active, being out most days with groups on the fells, I am very aware that my late Father had Type II Diabetes and died of prostatic cancer, so I have a greater inherited risk of both of these diseases. Like you I will first approach my GP, maybe in the Lakes they are more forward thinking than your local docs. Thx for this :)

mikee

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Re: Starvation & Survival
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2012, 04:37:07 PM »
You could be on the money Lyle, I have since leaving the post found my diary I kept and I was without sleep until day five.

So perhaps the energy loss was more to do with sleep deprivation than food. I had noted that eyesight improved very slightly, other found this too.

Pete McK

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Re: Starvation & Survival
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2012, 04:55:25 PM »
Sounds like some sort of course Mikee, where was it and what did you get from it, other than tiredness  ;)

Have never really been without food but years ago at Uni went without sleep for three days and really suffered for it, the alcohol might also have contributed ::)

Skills4Survival

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Re: Starvation & Survival
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2012, 05:13:29 PM »
no sleep, not even for 5 mins ?
Ivo

MoonMan

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Re: Starvation & Survival
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2013, 04:14:23 AM »
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/books/2013/09/how-chris-mccandless-died.html

Better to go hungry for a week or two, than to eat & be poisoned. Water, shelter, & sleep, are prime necessaries, the rest can be done without for a while.
Keeping Track of where Here is in relation to There.

Hugh Westacott

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Re: Starvation & Survival
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2013, 04:15:53 PM »
I’m fascinated by this discussion although the heroic feats described are way outside my experience and comfort zone.

I have, for some time, been doubtful whether the simplistic equation that if the amount of calories burned exceeds the intake of calories then weight is bound to be lost. My very limited experience suggests that this is not necessarily true.

I find that when backpacking my calorific intake is considerably less than when I am at home. My fluid intake is also much reduced. Last month, I backpacked for six days with my 21 year-old son from Land’s End to Falmouth in temperatures hovering around 30°C. We left Land’s End at 1600 intending to camp after seven miles. Austin was carrying two litres of water which he had drunk after five miles. He bought another two litres which lasted him until after breakfast the next day. I, on the other hand, drank a little over 500 mls before we camped. This pattern repeated itself for the rest of the trip with Austin eating huge meals and drinking about four times what I did. I had a bowl of muesli and some dried fruit for breakfast; a couple of slices of Ryvita and cheese for lunch; and a modest dinner. I did not snack between meals.

Austin is a good son and looks after his elderly Papa and carried 15kg compared to my 8kg pack weight.

My body weight remained constant; I never felt thirsty; my urine remained a light straw colour; my bowels functioned normally; and I never suffered dizziness or memory loss. My body seemed to work perfectly.

Now here’s an interesting comparison. When I’m at home I drink, on average per day, three litres of Earl Grey tea with neither milk nor sugar and I eat larger meals than when backpacking. I once asked an American doctor friend, who is also a keen backpacker, why I should drink so much more when I was at home. He explained that it was probably because I drank tea from habit rather than need. I found his answer interesting because most US backpacking books recommend drinking vast quantities of water when on the trail.

I know a lady who only has to look at a piece of chocolate and she puts on half a kilogram. In order to maintain a healthy weight she has to diet strictly and maintain a regimen of 1200 calories per day. If she exceeds this, she puts on weight at an alarming rate.
 
Any thoughts, anyone?

Hugh
The geriatric dwarf and backpacker
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 06:36:03 PM by Hugh Westacott »

Paul Hitchen

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Re: Starvation & Survival
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2013, 06:25:06 PM »
Hi Hugh

Not my area of expertise I'm afraid. But as a grunt I can observe two things.  Cold casualties improve if you stuff them with calories. As we are insulating them at the same time, it's not proven what works by that, i.e how much the calories or the insulation contributed to the improvement, but people who do know about hypothermia in Scottish Mountain Rescue write a lot about this subject and they agree, calories when cold if you are fit to eat are a good thing. 

Secondly, the MR team I am on were on a famous UK incident called the 4 Inns. In the 50s and 60s boy scouts did a long distance hike  the Peak District (England) in small groups with kit of the day (but there were 100s of scouts did it on the same day). One four Inns  walk in April 1964, the weather went south fast. (Sleet, then snow and freezing conditions). Three scouts died of hypothermia.  Lancet (UK medical journal) did a write up on it looking in detail (for 1964) at the scouts' clothing, the weather and their calorie intake.  They concluded (para phrased) that they were stuffed from the kick off. i.e they did not have enough insulation for the cold, the cold loss consumed energy as did the walk excursion, and they did not have enough calories to refuel - so they would not make it.  I read it in an archive it was interesting. Not saying that helps in any way or was correct - just saying it was interesting stuff.

all the best


Skills4Survival

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Re: Starvation & Survival
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2013, 07:09:31 AM »
You need more food (calories) to keep your body at the same temperature if it is colder, if you are under treat of hyperthermia PLUS you do not have enough intake, to me seems logic you are actually helping yourself to have more negative effect of exposure. However, I think there is a limit of course to the amount of influence, running around naked in -30 just having a good dinner probably will not do it :-)
Ivo

adi

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Re: Starvation & Survival
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2013, 09:44:17 AM »
Paul you were on the 1964 4 Inns? That was the start of most hypothermia research done in modern times. Hypothermia takes around 12 hours to set in although if you have had a hard day exercising burning up your energy levels it seems almost sudden. Calories are important early on. The important thing is to save energy and try to keep the fire that burns inside of use, alight. Shelter and insulation is hugely important.

A great energy boost is milk powder that is loaded with amino acids and an equal amount of sugar mixed in to a paste using water. This will make the fire grow inside as a flash burn which will give you enough energy to digest other foods you would hopefully have.

Hugh when you exercise, especially at an older age your magdala switches off the stomach. Blood flow is taken away from areas that are not needed. You have also walked for years so your body has learnt to compensate. Compared to your son your experience has taught your body to use a lot less energy over the given distance. I am very surprised you were able to sustain yourself on only 500ml of water a day for 6 days. You are probably a lot leaner than your son and because your experience means you don't burn as much energy you would also need less water however I suspect that with only 500 ml of water a day did effect your performance some what but maybe not enough to you to notice. I suggest that if you had drunk more you would have experienced more performance and was less tired at the end of each day.

When I cycled I had to teach myself to drink whilst riding hard. Research has shown you need around a pint of water for every hour of exercise to maintain peak performance.         
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

Paul Hitchen

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Re: Starvation & Survival
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2013, 09:58:11 AM »
Hi Adi

Not me but the MR team I am on were on the 4 Inns rescue (I was not born then, just).  I researched it for a book I wrote about the team's first 50 years. There are still lads on the team who were there, and one was badly injured in the rescue.  There are some really gnarly old hillbaggers on the team harder than a bag of spanners, and they remember the 4 Inns weather as a evil, especially as it was April. Some of the pics of old Coppers in Great Coats covered in Rime Ice, dragging  poor young bodies off the hill on a poncho for a stretcher are amazingly emotional. That was the birth of the Peak District Mountain Rescue Organisation. The team I am on started in 1957 and developed the cas bag still used today by most of MREW as a result of the 4 Inns (one lad was a textiles guru).

So I was not there but have enjoyed the stories from the old timers over many a beer. The Scottish MR lads have taken hypothermia research and the special wet kind we get in the UK to fantastic levels of knowledge. Sounds as though you know your stuff too?

all the best

adi

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Re: Starvation & Survival
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2013, 10:20:12 AM »
Bloody hell man that is so interesting. I suggest you get the members of the team that were on 4 Inns to document their memories and collect any paperwork from that day as a valuable document for once they are gone. Oneday, it would make a wonderful book.

When I was a Kid I was up on Dartmoor doing ten tours training on the last weekend of April and we had really bad weather, 10 inches of snow and I remember the teacher who was an ex para say I hope this does not turn into a 4 Inns! Curiosity got the better of me and I asked what he was talking about and he told me about it. Our Ten tours team were all from the moors and used to being out on the moors all winter what ever the weather so we just shrugged it off and ploughed on but I do remember that teacher being very concerned about the conditions and our welfare.   
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

Callum

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Re: Starvation & Survival
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2013, 10:27:14 AM »
Totally on-board with the calories advice. Being both wet and windy for much of the time the Lake District is an area where on the fells it is very easy to develop early stage hypothermia. The youngsters we take on their trips are always amused that their ‘teachers’ actually instruct them to eat in class and I personally always have half a dozen Mars Bars in my kit, as you say Paul it is amazing just how quickly, glucose in this instance, starts the process of warming, I also think that there is the psychology of association involved in eating a well-known chocolate bar we would more normally associate with happy times.