Author Topic: Spot/In Reach/ PLB - balancing them  (Read 8536 times)

Oakleaf

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Spot/In Reach/ PLB - balancing them
« on: January 01, 2014, 12:19:58 PM »
Hello,

I've done some searching on the forum and that has been useful, but would like to pick the collective brain further if I may.

I'm a deer stalker and spend a lot of time training/ assessing stalkers.  In general stalking has a great safety record and yet compared to many other outdoor participants, the level of safety related equipment carried is ( or seems ) quite low.  Things are changing and professional stalkers in particular now routinely prepare in a way and carry gear that was unheard of even a decade back.  But there seems to be something of a rather novel inertia - given the gadget obsession that shooters are generally guilty of! ;)

I've pushed for and supported the land use PLB changes and tried to push that within the field as well. Take-up has basically been miniscule and in trade interest really a collective yawn.  So in many ways quite pleased I'm getting an increasing number of queries as to 'which system is best'  ( inverted commas for the obvious reasons on that! ). I'm a long time follower of ETS and Doug Ritter's reviews and that has coloured my thoughts. Add in I'm a small 'c' conservative when it comes to gear - I still use a Nokia 6310 and have an in car kit fitted in the 4x4.  I like a phone to make and receive calls and a camera to take pictures and games to come in a box from Waddington's.  Start to mix and match things and I feel a prickle of uncertainty. Certainly experience with gear  ( outwith my Leatherman Wave ) is that Jacks of all trade seldom master any.

So that's my mindset when it comes to rescue type communications.  I envisage that when I want it I actually need it and it simply has to work - with the ground breaking experimentation etc having already been done by more intrepid souls :D  Hence I carry a Fast Find Ranger PLB.  Anything short of a true emergency can most likely wait until I get to somewhere with SMS signal for the mobile.  Yet if the chips are down, then I have high confidence that flipping the lid, extending the antenna and pressing the button on the Ranger is going to bring help. ( usual caveats ).

Spot - I can see some comfort in the tracking and in particular messaging options. But it seems, to me, that hands down emergency distress is compromised in the process. They are popular on a number of estates, but operation does seem patchy and ultimately you rely on a commercial enterprise.

In-Reach - only seen one unit thus far - the Delorme one.  Its mated to a 'new fangled' phone - but believe that is merely to facilitate the messaging etc - it will work with set messages and SOS alert on a stand alone basis? It appears a more substantial and systemically more robust than Spot?

So my current advice is to ask where their priority lays - if its chips are down help message must get through - PLB. If the ability to let XYZ know you're running a bit late or need picking up etc and the likelihood of getting a phone signal at a convenient point is too small then In reach ( in preference to Spot ).  But not discounting considering both!  For professionals who may have non-english speaking and rather disoriented Foreign clients with them, I push the PLB as a sensible tool.

Is this appropriate advice? I'd be grateful for your views and correction on any misconceptions etc.

adi

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Re: Spot/In Reach/ PLB - balancing them
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2014, 07:55:37 PM »
Hi Oakleaf and welcome to the forum.

I am In full agreement with you. PLB wins hands down. I was dead against Spot when it first came out. They only had around 46% success rate when activated.  This has improved considerably as the system has been updated and improved but I am not sure they have got to 99% yet.   

The In-reach in theory should work better than the Spot because there are more satellites to receive it.
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

Lost Soul

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Re: Spot/In Reach/ PLB - balancing them
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2014, 05:40:52 PM »
Hence I carry a Fast Find Ranger PLB.

I've got one of them.  And I carry it too.  Bought it after seeing Lyle's post and very instructive video on the subject.

So what is my logic for carrying yet another expensive techno gadget?  OK so I spend quite a lot of my time walking by myself in the overpopulated South East.  Overpopulated the South East might be but contrary to popular belief the woods and Downs and fields most certainly do not resemble the concourse of Victoria Station on a weekday morning.  No not even on a nice sunny summers Sunday afternoon they don't.  Far from it.

In fact one can go for miles and hours and not see another soul, particularly on week days in winter when the weather is rough.  Also in this overpopulated neck of the woods when police and search parties are looking for missing persons and worse it can take them days to locate a body.  Sometimes its just the unfortunate luck of a random dog walker to find a body weeks after a person has been posted missing presumed murdered. In one infamously tragic case the body was accidentally found by a dog walker just on the field side of a hedgerow running along a busy main road.  All some 6 days after the person was reported missing and a massive publicity campaign to boot. The body had lain there for all of those 6 days.

So bearing all that in mind I reason that should I be unfortunate enough to have a mishap in a wood or remote field my best chance of being found alive is to fire off my PLB.  Should I be conscious and able enough of course to perform the act.

Having said that they would most certainly be an extravagant luxury if with a group in the South East.  Given that mobile phone signals are not that available, in fact non-existent in some quite large areas, in the countryside of the South East balanced by the fact that a farm house or roadway is probably never more than 30 minutes away.  Then someone can always walk out and raise the alarm and provide details of position etc.  That is assuming of course someone in the group has a map with them and someone in the group knows how to fix a position as well as determine a map reference.

Naturally in mountainous areas I do carry it irrespective of whom I am with.

As an aside, recently, in between chewing a sandwich on top of a Dolomite, I was chatting with an Australian Lady who was associated with the management of the National Parks in NSW.  The conversation got around to PLBs.  (I think she spotted said gadget lurking in the top of my rucksack).  Any way she advised that people going into the parks are required - or was it advised (can't quite remember - maybe Moonman can advise) - to take PLBs with them.  Obviously too many people get lost in them there places with tragic consequence.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 09:56:24 AM by Lost Soul »

Lyle Brotherton

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Re: Spot/In Reach/ PLB - balancing them
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2014, 08:29:05 PM »
At the SARSCENE conference, in Canada, I hooked up with Doug Ritter, who is North America’s equivalent of my good friend Tom Taylor of ARCC (The United Kingdom's Aeronautical Rescue Coordination Centre, based at RAF Kinloss). These two guys have more knowledge than most other people on this planet about civilian and military distress beacons.

The fact that Doug’s first SPOT test unit, supplied by the manufacturer, let in water and stopped working, is just the beginning of a trial which I will conclude by stating that Doug, like Tom, still personally uses a PLB – say no more! 
« Last Edit: January 02, 2014, 08:37:52 PM by Lyle Brotherton »
“Opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance” - Plato

Oakleaf

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Re: Spot/In Reach/ PLB - balancing them
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2014, 08:44:22 PM »
Thank you for the responses. If anyone hears an update on the Inreach equation please post.  I now have a regular client that got one for Christmas - so will have a close gander at it and implement a regime of 'testing' - ie pushing him into Lochans etc - purely for the sake of research....

Lyle your comment said it all really.

The case of the missing man in the States - think he vanished in Sept and body was found 800 miles away in crash remains of his vehicle - not far, but out of sight of a high way. Alleged evidence he survived the crashed and died sometime subsequently being unable to attract help or exit the vehicle. Really underpins, if we know something is going to go wrong then our preparation would be entirely different!  My PLB sits in a specific pocket of the jacket I will wear out. The chat about it to client etc  is part of my standard patter. 

I think it was mentioned elsewhere on here - so much good stuff I'm losing track! - chose Ranger over what seemed to be better looking and slightly better set up ACR - because McMurdo had such a strong support presence in the UK, whereas ACR appears near non-existent?

Again, thank you for the input - always happy to learn and hear other's views.

Lost Soul

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Re: Spot/In Reach/ PLB - balancing them
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2014, 10:06:30 AM »
Just a further thought on PLBs

Before you can declare them operational you are required to register them with your national rescue co-ordination authority.  In the UK that is the Maritime Coastguard Agency.  Part of the required information is to advise emergency contact details.

For my self I stated For next of kin and medical details call Cram Alert ID on  01207 856 0444 and quote emergency ID number  - - - - .

See this topic for information on Cram Alert http://micronavigation.com/forum/index.php?topic=413.0

This way I figure responders will have all the information they need to have about me when they find me rather than having the time delaying job of trying to extract it from me - no mean task if I am unconscious, or incoherent and confused.

Oakleaf

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Re: Spot/In Reach/ PLB - balancing them
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2014, 02:49:56 PM »
Thank you for the replies in general.

Still getting used to the forum - in a good way! - as on every other I can think of we'd be up to post 954  by now and the name calling, Walter Mitty Armchair expert/ sociopaths  would have dominated.  What a pleasant change!  :)

Slight tangent, but within context as Registration has been raised.

I registered my unit online and felt obliged to do a follow up after about 9 weeks as nothing heard. A very nice young ( mysogynistic presumption/ chivalrous  gentleman - delete as is your want ) lady e mailed by return to confirm received, logged and label etc in process - but very short staffed and work load increasing. She sent me the registration entry to confirm with the same note.  All now sorted.

But emphasised something I tend to always keep in mind - 'where does the wire go?'. IE if I press this button what actually happens and why.  Without the good administration of the user details, without a well staffed and funded co-ordination centre and without the people and assets to come out and find you - the world's greatest PLB is just a plastic box.

I wrote to the head of department at the MCA to thank his staff member for her assistance, my appreciation of their work load and the essential role they play. I expressed the fervant hope that such an essential service was receiving full and proper support from the Government -  said letter was copied to my local MP & MSP.  Through one of the businesses I do work for we donated direct to SMRC  and each time I'm in Go Outdoors at Inverness I buy a handful of SMRC Supporter badges as gifts for clients.  View it as a natural extension of the choice to carry a PLB and frankly the absolute minimum I should do on the basis of conscience.

Once members here get to know me a bit better and I them, its perhaps something to revisit - in terms of the best ways to support the infrastructure that responds to emergency calls/ plbs etc.

Hugh Westacott

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Re: Spot/In Reach/ PLB - balancing them
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2014, 05:49:39 PM »
I can't help thinking that it's a bit too easy to recommend and carry an array of expensive electronic gadgetry just in case it might be needed. I can see the point of carrying PLBs in extreme conditions but, frankly, not when walking in lowland countryside.

Risk can never be completely eliminated but it can be reduced by taking sensible precautions which have to balanced against the cost of the equipment. I regularly walk half a mile through woods to and from the station. I do so in the dark if there's sufficient moonlight to see the path. Is anyone seriously suggesting that I should carry a PLB, just in case?

I know of a couple of unusual cases. In one, a motorcyclist on a country lane took a bend too fast and was thrown over a hedge. The police searched for him for several days but his body was eventually found by a farmer checking the security of his field boundaries. The other case involved an elderly man walking through his local fields who somehow managed to entangle himself in a large coil of barbed wire. He was found in a distressed state by two little girls who were walking their dog.

My point is that these incidents are very rare. I cannot imagine my ever insisting to members of the navigation classes I occasionally instruct that it is essential to carry either a satnav or a PLB when walking in lowland countryside. It's fine, of course on a personal level, if you can afford these gadgets and feel that you need to set a good example, but I can't imagine myself succumbing to the blandishments of the manufacturers of PLBs.

Hugh

Oakleaf

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Re: Spot/In Reach/ PLB - balancing them
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2014, 07:19:14 PM »
Hugh - thank you for the input.

I know I'm complicating things - but so very conscious of how typed words can be mis--interpreted; without intonation, facial expression etc. So if I may caveat that read your comments entirely without rancour and hope my response is received in the same manner.

Its very useful to have balancing views rather than group 'love-in' or 'trial by forum' type posts so prevalent elsewhere.  Think I'm at risk over -using the phrase refreshing!

As in life, I find much we agree on, something we agree on for different reasons and some differences to an extent worth note.

Stalking is a sub-division of both shooting, wildlife observation and outdoor pursuit - as such its a gear fetishist paradise!  :)  And as is often the case, what really matters is the person rather than the gear n gadgets.  I've reached that stage in the game where I ( by no one's bigger surprise than my own ) find myself entering the province of being an 'old fogey'.  Conversations with peers become rather repetitive ( but its ok because we never remember them  ;) ) and the subject of newcomers trying to buy their way into experience & skill is common.  In that context, wholeheartedly agree with your opening sentence.

But my first variance is with your second.  There are lots of caveats such as mobile reception, people around etc etc.  But incidents happen anywhere.  I would suggest that with very few exceptions, it is a rare day when you can predict exactly where you are, what you are doing and what will happen - and the availability of assistance.  If I have the correct information, the gentleman in the USA that was found in October was within a few hundred feet of a major and heavily used highway, in an area with general mobile reception - just not where his vehicle landed.

Risk and its assessment is a broad pew. A key tenet is freedom - both of choice  and to accept responsibility.  I don't know the exact nature of your station walk in the woods - so cant comment.  I fully respect your assessment and choice.  There's an element we agree on - technology should never be a replacement for common sense.  Its a negative aspect of human nature.  I was doing some Police based driver training in the early 90's as airbags where coming into general use.  Emergency services noted a more cavalier attitude from drivers in airbag equipped cars. Instructors discussed a similar issue with students. Almost subconsciously they felt that the airbag rather than make existing behaviour safer gave a 'license' to push the envelope.  It was very interesting - a similar mindset had not really occurred with mandatory seat belts, was the gadget/ technology aspect that was the root difference?

I do not carry a PLB because I expect an incident to occur. But having thought through the things I do and the places I do them it represents a valid personal choice. Others will be different.  But very closely allied to that personal circumstantial need is responsibility to others. As I've mentioned I carry a PLB as much as a duty to others as for my benefit.  That is in terms of people that may come out to look for me. But wider, taking people - often inexperienced of the outdoors - out professional there's a further layer of obligation upon me  and a strong practical element.

Picking up on your lowland comments.  A friend and long served professional stalker around the Central belt had a foreign client out. They had a long day out  and were returning with a stag in tow. He misplaced his step  on a down gradient and the stag collided with him.  One of those instances where you couldn't make it up - the stag's antlers pierced his sleeves ( but not him ) and effectively pinned him in place!  With his hands locked, the slope and weight of the stag he couldn't move.  The client was able to help free him. But it set him thinking - if an antler had pierced him and them pinned him what could have happened?  The client spoke little English and would be hard pressed to describe the situation or the location. If he sent the client for help how would he fair?  There was no mobile signal.

As it happened, their outing had been a circular one - they were in fact less than 200 yds from a layby on an A road where their vehicle was. But out of sight and sound of the road.

The PLB makes sense for me - but isnt a panacea by any means. I think we are solid on that!

Your final sentence strikes a chord as well - my view is that PLB have been spectacularly poorly marketed. In the fieldsports world they are virtually unheard of, few of the bushcraft 'guru's every acknowledge ( in 'character' ) their existence.  So I totally agree too much gear is promoted with a capital P and there is way to much advertising 'puff' about generally. But iromically the PLB remains unsung in my view!

Hope that makes sense and is read in spirit intended Hugh - friendly discussion.

Appreciate getting long here - but brief update. Spent two days out with a client who has just got a Delorme In Reach - the new model with integral screen. So had the chance to see it in action.  I'll post some pics etc when get the chance.

For the client it made a great deal of sense - the text function is essential to him. Close second his brother loves to stalk with him, but cant always get away. With the track function he was vicariously enjoying the outing from the discomfort of his office - simply by following the plots.  Stalking the next spectator sport? Probably not  ;)

BUT - lots of functions and buttons. OK SOS mode was a simple ( though quite small ) lock button and single activate button. But cold, tired or stressed, it was a lot to navigate/ follow.  The main point was that on checking the unit at intervals it seemed to be getting only about 80% of the waypoints transmitted. This was in quite thick commercial forestry at about 300 metres with some steepish slopes - but no deep gullys etc.  What if you were pinned at a location with no signal?

Nothing scientific at all but felt worth using up one of the full Ranger PLB test cycles - we found a spot with no In-reach signal and I activated full self test on the PLB - it obtained GPS lock in about 50 seconds. 

On flip side - there has been an instance of a stalker dying - through a pre-existing medical condition - and it taking several days to find him.  They would not likely have had chance to activate a PLB, but Inreach set to tracking would have either marked their location or at least the path they were following.

All of which leads back to Hughes contention about 'enjoying' the outdoors whilst carrying 40 kilo's of electronics!

Pete McK

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Re: Spot/In Reach/ PLB - balancing them
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2014, 08:54:04 AM »
We bought our PLB for use during our off-piste skiing in the Alps and as it weighs a mere 145 grams. We decided to leave it at the bottom of our rucksack for all our outdoor trips, including a visit to the ultimate English lowland area, the Norfolk Fens. Luckily we have never had cause to use it, either here or in the mountain areas we visit. But an interesting footnote is, that even though the Fens are just to the south of King's Lynn, there are parts of them where there is no mobile reception and with few visitors these areas could be considered remote. We probably wouldn't buy a PLB specifically for the Fens but owning one and not carry it seems daft ;)

Hugh Westacott

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Re: Spot/In Reach/ PLB - balancing them
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2014, 04:30:18 PM »
Thank you for your considered reply, Oakleaf!

Just to reassure you, members of this forum sometimes disagree with each other but the tradition is to do so politely, just as you have done.

My position is this. I've been wandering about the British countryside for more than sixty years and have never had an accident or had to call in the emergency services. I'm a professional guide and have had only two clients among the thousands that I've led who have suffered injuries, and both cases were minor. So, based on experience, I genuinely feel that there is no need for me to carry a PLB in lowland countryside because I believe that the chances of something going seriously wrong are pretty remote.  I agree that it happens occasionally, but I think that there is more chance of being mowed down by a hit and tun driver on a country lane and left to die in a ditch than suffering a serious accident on a field path.

For the record, I'm a dedicated map and compass man and don't like handheld satnavs. However, I carry one, but do not rely on it for navigation, when leading walks (to satisfy my insurance company), and when walking in upland areas (to satisfy my wife).

Each to his own, I say!

I'm interested, Pete, in your foray from your Lake District stamping grounds to, as Noel Coward put it,' Very flat, Norfolk'. It's been stated on this forum that  contours are the most important feature for navigating in lowland countryside. Did you and Emma find this to be the case?

Hugh

Lost Soul

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Re: Spot/In Reach/ PLB - balancing them
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2014, 04:33:20 PM »
Hugh,

To clarify my last post.  When I posted that there was some justification for carrying a PLB in lowland areas for the lone walker I was not for one moment suggesting that one be carried for a walk through woods (presumably on a well used footpath) to the station.  I was in fact referring to remote areas in the SE and other low land parts of the UK.  Pete McK has more or less said what I was going to say using the same justifications.  But an interesting footnote is, that even though the Fens are just to the south of King's Lynn, there are parts of them where there is no mobile reception and with few visitors these areas could be considered remote.

Other areas I was thinking of are Ashdown Forest,  about 30 sq miles of wander anywhere heathland and woodland and the New Forest about 200 sq miles of the same.  Few roads through them, and even less parking where most visitors probably never wander more than 100 yds from their cars.  I too would class these area as remote, particularly for the lone walker. 

Same too for many areas of the South Downs.  Lots of interesting woodland to wander around in off path.  Even across the fields not every path sees people walking along it everyday of the week at regular intervals.  Far from it.  Many would only be used on a sunny Saturday or Sunday.  Again on that basis I would call that remote for the lone walker.

Come to think of it on a nice mid week day I have come across far more people on the paths of the Snowdon Horseshoe than I have on the more popular parts of the Southdowns on a similarly nice mid week.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 07:29:09 PM by Lost Soul »

Oakleaf

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Re: Spot/In Reach/ PLB - balancing them
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2014, 06:02:20 PM »
Hugh

Glad  discussion proceeding in spirit intend on both sides.

Freedom of choice absolute and no disagreement at all that reliance ( over ? ) on technology over personal skills etc is a dangerous path in more ways than one.

One further contribution to the lowland element. I attended an outdoor first aid course near Dorking. Very good it was too!  As part of the course we were encouraged to bellow 'help,help, help'  as part of reacting to simulated events. As is always the way, this initially was quite uncomfortable to do and rather timidly executed! But as things progressed we got pretty loud.  The area was within sight of a village and the woods we used frequented by numerous dog walkers etc, there were cars stopping regularly at a lay-by about 200 yards away.  At the end I asked the course instructor what the arrangement was to prevent false alarms....   he shrugged and replied ' there isnt anything - no one knows its training'.  Ahh says I, so people are just used to your activity in this area?  'No this is the first time we have used this wood'!

Back to the comparison, below should be pictures of the client Delorme I mentioned, his linked Smart Phone and my PLB. Also a snap of the type of ground we were crossing ( dont start my on the beautiful wind turbine enhancing the view :'( )



[imghttp://s1369.photobucket.com/user/Oakleaf007/media/IMG_3155_zpsffdea5f7.jpg.html][/img]
http://s1369.photobucket.com/user/Oakleaf007/media/IMG_3157_zpscf47ff45.jpg.html
http://s1369.photobucket.com/user/Oakleaf007/media/IMG_3161_zpsf5fe1c7b.jpg.html
http://s1369.photobucket.com/user/Oakleaf007/media/IMG_3187_zps9366d173.jpg.html

Seem to be able to post link address to Photobucket ( as per forum instruction ) but no joy getting pics to show direct - any advice?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 06:12:30 PM by Oakleaf »

Lyle Brotherton

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Re: Spot/In Reach/ PLB - balancing them
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2014, 07:29:47 PM »
“Opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance” - Plato

Hugh Westacott

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Re: Spot/In Reach/ PLB - balancing them
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2014, 09:26:13 PM »
I suppose what concerns me most about this discussion is the cost of all these precautions. It's all very well for those who can afford to make expensive purchases, but I worry that novice walkers might be persuaded that items such as satnavs and PLBs are essential items of equipment. In my opinion, they are not!

My father, born in 1902, was a keen walker all his life and explored much of Kent, Surrey, Sussex and Hampshire on foot. He wore a flannel shirt, an old woollen pullover, shorts or flannel trousers tucked into his socks, veldtschoen shoes with an Itshide golfing sole, an old Burberry raincoat that was too shabby to wear to his office, a tweed cap, and a walking stick. When it rained he expected to get wet. He had a rubberized canvas rucksack (I can smell it now) and carried a thermos flask and sandwiches (pubs were an expensive luxury that he could ill afford). He took with him the 1:16630 OS map which, of course, does not show field boundaries, and a simple brass compass.

Many of today's walkers can afford to buy expensive gear. But there are still many poor families and it is a pity if they are put off what could be a wonderfully cheap and healthy pastime by the perceived expense of kitting themselves out. An early issue of Trail magazine had an article entitled Kit yourself out for £500. This was before the introduction of handheld satnavs and I suspect that the present-day figure could be well over £1000.

So lets get real! In the lowland areas of England most of the items suitable for walking during the temperate months of the year will be in everyone's wardrobe. A cheap plastic mac can be bought for a fiver (I recently saw a nearly-new proofed nylon poncho for £3.00 in a charity shop). As for navigation equipment, the only essential item is a 1:25,000 map. A compass is useful but not essential.

When thinking about safety we have to bear in mind that in most of lowland England the law requires that we follow public rights of way. Most are signposted from roads and often waymarked along their route. Even in the areas that Lost Soul describes as 'remote, you are never very far from a road or human habitation. To satisfy the fears of your family, all you need to do is to leave a photocopy of your map with the route marked on it. In the unlikely event that you fail to return, the police should have a pretty clear idea of where you are likely to be. Incidentally, I suspect that the sound if a whistle will travel farther, and is more likely to attract attention, than the human voice.

A final thought. Should I wear a crash helmet to protect me in case I have the misfortune to fall off a stile? And steel toecaps lest a cow should tread on my foot?

Hugh

The pursuit of accuracy should not be confused with pedantry. Horace