Author Topic: Psychology  (Read 9926 times)

Lost Soul

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Psychology
« on: September 02, 2012, 01:55:38 PM »
Adi, I think someone may have beaten you in terms of the book.  Found this title only yesterday “The Outdoor Survival Handbook” by Rob Beattie, Published by Apple in 2012.  It deals with the STOP rule, fire steels etc.

On a related topic, state of mind is a pretty fundamental aspect of survival.  Long ago I remember attending a symposium on survival and rescue at sea.  Of all the lectures given the one that sticks in my mind to this day was the one given by a Psychologist from Lanchester University.  Who had made a lifelong study on what factors contribute to people living and dying in extreme conditions.  A majority of the scenarios were well beyond water and the sea I might add.  And of course he was talking about a person’s state of mind being a significant contributing factor affecting survival.

Basically if you think you are going to survive you probably will, if you think the opposite then you will probably die.  He illustrated his lecture with examples of people surviving the most impossible situations – jungles, mountains etc - because they believed in themselves and had the will to live.  Yet on the other hand people die in quite survivable conditions because they gave up hope and did little to help themselves - see Adi’s post immediately on helping yourself.

adi

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Re: Psychology
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2012, 02:38:30 PM »
LOL STOP rule has been around for 40 years and is regurgitated in most survival books.

The first public survival manual was the US Army Survival Manual and it had no copy right so it have been copied to death including the stuff that is wrong. Manual survival manuals same the same stuff there are very few that are upto date and written from modern up to date knowledge and equipment. 

I am not sure I want to buy another survival book to be honest, it is probably only a re titled copy of The Outdoor Survival Bible which is a rewrite of 'The Pocket Book of Survival' by the same author.

The state of mind of survival is the most important thing. I have studied this quite in depth, not only in wilderness survival but urban survival and disasters. I have been fortunate enough have talked to many survivors from around the world, survivors of many different situations from wilderness survival to terrorist bombs. I have taken that knowledge and used it in my courses.

I spoke to a professional Yachts woman some years ago who whilst ferrying a yacht across the Atlantic the yacht sank. Her and 3 others ended up in a lift raft and for respect of all involved I will not go into the details because I am not sure how public the details are but one girl just gave up and died in the boat but the first to die was a male who lost his nerve among some other very disturbing things shouted we are all going to die and jumped into the sea and swam away. His body was never recovered. The Yachts woman was the only survivor it is everyone's belief that she should not have lived she defied medical knowledge by a mile. The reason she lived was because she was an around the world yachts woman that had experienced many hardships during her sailing carer and had the determination to keep going.   
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 03:26:37 PM by adi »
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

adi

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Re: Psychology
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2012, 03:11:01 PM »
  Long ago I remember attending a symposium on survival and rescue at sea.  Of all the lectures given the one that sticks in my mind to this day was the one given by a Psychologist from Lanchester University.

Was it Dr John Leach? He is one of the leading experts on the subject. He gave a lecture when I was doing one of my survival instructor courses, A really interesting information filled 4 hours that pricked my interest somewhat.

Laurence Gonzales book on the subject is a great read and his talks are entertaining and informative too.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 04:01:05 PM by adi »
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

adi

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Re: Psychology
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2012, 04:00:16 PM »
People dismiss survival as a subject that will never effect them but they don't realise that only 10% of people are wired to survive all the others are wired to die, some of them will actually continue on with their day ignoring the treat actually speeding up their death.

The more experience you have have of a situation the more likely you are to survive. If you are willing to break the rules or even the law you are more likely to survive. If you are willing to ring up your work and tell them that you are ill when in fact you are going to the beach for the day you are more likely to survive. 

Survival Psychology is definitely the most interesting and important part of the subject and in many respects you can forget much of the rest of the subject. Too much knowledge can work against you too.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 04:06:49 PM by adi »
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

Brian

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Re: Psychology
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2012, 05:18:44 PM »
I'm fascinated by this thread.  Thanks to all who have contributed to it.

Adi - STOP is terribly important.  And as a companion to a good knife, I'd have a saw of some sort.  I prefer a substantial folding pruning saw with a 7 - 10 inch blade.  Cheap, light weight and safer and more energy efficient cross-cutting a branch than swinging with a knife.  Also, in our evergreen forests, you can remove boughs from trees (insulation) much more easily with a saw than with a knife (you can't swing your knife within the density of the branches). 

With the saw, you can make a baton to strike the spine of your knife for wood-splitting and for chopping, you can "square" the ends of branches, precisely cut lengths, etc.

"State of mind" is crucial.  I try to get people to a survival mentality by providing them with a familiarity of what to expect if lost in the woods, what equipment they should have, and how to use their tools.  IF they practice a little, much of the terror of the unknown dissipates. 

In essence, knowledge, proper equipment and practice should help create state of mind conducive to survival.  Or so I hope.

In the way of shelter equipment, I also stress taking a 4 mil thick plastic contractor's trash bag as a last resort.  Cut a hole on the fold near the closed end for your face, and climb in if the worst comes to the worst.  Cheap, light-weight and effective.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 05:33:44 PM by Brian »

adi

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Re: Psychology
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2012, 05:33:38 PM »
A great trick for the contractor's trash bag is to fill it up with dry dead leaves found on the forest floor and tie shut. Light a long fire and curl up on your leaf mattresses and fall into a piecefull sleep only to wake to put more fuel on the fire, unless of course you know how to make a fire that will last all night. Use a survival blanket as a lean-to behind as a reflector and you can have a comfortable nights sleep down to -30°C.
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

Lost Soul

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Re: Psychology
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2012, 06:10:46 PM »
Was it Dr John Leach? He is one of the leading experts on the subject. He gave a lecture when I was doing one of my survival instructor courses, A really interesting information filled 4 hours that pricked my interest somewhat.

Yes it was,  in about ' 97 and he pricked my interest too. Straight afterwards I bought his book on the subject and read it avidly.  Interestingly, there were a couple of Medical Doctors in the audience who were being somewhat dismissive of his ideas.  People don’t just give up die you know there are clear medical reasons why people die.  For me Dr Leach had hit the nail on the head.

Also about that time I found myself in a situation interviewing some of the survivors of a helicopter that crashed in the North Sea at night in absolutely appalling weather conditions.  Basically said helicopter flew into a rising wave.  Of the 20 odd souls on board (oil rig workers plus 2 pilots) 6 or 7 were trapped inside and went down with the wreck.  The rest escaped and were left bobbing about in the sea for the most part.
 
They were rescued in about 45 minutes but by that time half of them were dead, primarily brought on by defective survival equipment.  However, the point of this story is the survivors all said that their training had contributed significantly to their survival.  Oil Rig workers and flight crews have to undergo compulsory escape training from a submerged helicopter.  The other significant factor was that the survivors (well the ones we spoke to) were good swimmers and were totally unfazed by finding themselves in the water.  Basically it was not a hostile environment to them, so their state of mind was ok I’m here it ain’t going to kill me.

This basically reinforces the previous posts.  Training helps – enormously and so too does a lack of fear of the predicament that you find yours self in.  Trained, cool, calm, collected and focused is the way to be.

Skills4Survival

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Re: Psychology
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2012, 07:16:56 PM »
Yes, John Leach, connected to university of Lancaster, and he also followed several survival courses. Very good book, really an eye-opener. Also consider the Biology of human survival (piantadosi) and, older book, the psysiology of human survival (edholm, bacharach). Also take a ook at The Psychologist Vol 24 No 1 January 2011  where Leach writes an article. You can buy the magazine for 3,60 at BPSHOP in the UK.

It shows that the will to live is an outdated concept.  BTW, in that issue there is more interesting stuff.

www.thesurvivorsclub.org
Leach, J. (1994). Survival psychology.
Basingstoke: Palgrave Macmillan.
Ivo

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Re: Psychology
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2012, 07:47:31 PM »
LOL STOP rule has been around for 40 years and is regurgitated in most survival books.

The first public survival manual was the US Army Survival Manual and it had no copy right so it have been copied to death including the stuff that is wrong. Manual survival manuals same the same stuff there are very few that are upto date and written from modern up to date knowledge and equipment. 

I am not sure I want to buy another survival book to be honest, it is probably only a re titled copy of The Outdoor Survival Bible which is a rewrite of 'The Pocket Book of Survival' by the same author.

The state of mind of survival is the most important thing. I have studied this quite in depth, not only in wilderness survival but urban survival and disasters. I have been fortunate enough have talked to many survivors from around the world, survivors of many different situations from wilderness survival to terrorist bombs. I have taken that knowledge and used it in my courses.

I spoke to a professional Yachts woman some years ago who whilst ferrying a yacht across the Atlantic the yacht sank. Her and 3 others ended up in a lift raft and for respect of all involved I will not go into the details because I am not sure how public the details are but one girl just gave up and died in the boat but the first to die was a male who lost his nerve among some other very disturbing things shouted we are all going to die and jumped into the sea and swam away. His body was never recovered. The Yachts woman was the only survivor it is everyone's belief that she should not have lived she defied medical knowledge by a mile. The reason she lived was because she was an around the world yachts woman that had experienced many hardships during her sailing carer and had the determination to keep going.

Outside of the Field Manual 21-76, The US Army Field Manual I always look at Airforce fieldmanual 64-4, which is more complete. In addition I really like the book of the brothers Craighead (How to survive on land and sea, 4th edition). Also the "psychology of wilderness survival" by Ferri (although it is not all about that at all), which has some really practical things in it. I also like the old version of J. Wayne Fears. Ray Mears has a few nice books, also because it is illlustrated nice (which is in general not that nice for survival books). Although Hugh Mcmanners does a reasonable job at it (commando survival book). Same goes for Colin Towell (Handboek survival, in dutch). National Geographic also has a nice illustrated guide. And ofcourse the good old lofte one. Although good, never understand why the illustration is not more realistic (has to be fun to read as well). In addition, essentials of sea survival by golden /tipton. Bushcraft from Kochanski really adds some value to the others, lots of detail on a few topics, but again, illustration not that nice, although the book is really good I believe.

Even new books, like Hawke's green beret survival manual, packed with info, but so poorly executed in publishing, it is not even funny. Guess it costs a lot of money extra to have nice and illustrated pages, no idea, not my cup of tea. (just to get back to the tea thing :-)
Ivo

Lost Soul

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Re: Psychology
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2012, 08:20:41 PM »

It shows that the will to live is an outdated concept. 

So what is the current concept?

adi

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Re: Psychology
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2012, 09:58:06 PM »
Outside of the Field Manual 21-76, The US Army Field Manual I always look at Airforce fieldmanual 64-4, which is more complete. In addition I really like the book of the brothers Craighead (How to survive on land and sea, 4th edition). Also the "psychology of wilderness survival" by Ferri (although it is not all about that at all), which has some really practical things in it. I also like the old version of J. Wayne Fears. Ray Mears has a few nice books, also because it is illlustrated nice (which is in general not that nice for survival books). Although Hugh Mcmanners does a reasonable job at it (commando survival book). Same goes for Colin Towell (Handboek survival, in dutch). National Geographic also has a nice illustrated guide. And ofcourse the good old lofte one. Although good, never understand why the illustration is not more realistic (has to be fun to read as well). In addition, essentials of sea survival by golden /tipton. Bushcraft from Kochanski really adds some value to the others, lots of detail on a few topics, but again, illustration not that nice, although the book is really good I believe.

No disrespect, in my opinion but the only two book worth the paper you have mentioned is the Outdoor Survival Guide by J Wayne Fears and bushcraft by Mors. Although Mors in Person is a nightmare to learn from he is as scatty as a musk rat. The other books just drag up the same stuff over and over again.

We sale product to Ray in fact I will be seeing him again next week. His first two books were ok but you need first additions of them to get all the best info. As Ray became more famous he started doing what cooks do leaving out important parts of the recipe. Ray knows his stuff but don't be fooled he is a TV presenter. 

Hugh Mcmanners was an officer in Artillery he was in my regiment in was BC of 17 Battery before leaving the Army. As an officer he worked on the OP's directing Artillery fire on to the enemy, the same job I did but with out the pips. Before that  he was in 29 Commando Royal Artillery he was never a Royal Marine. His survival skills were not all that, ok he ran the jungle warfare center in Belize so he knew his way in the jungle and I think he might have done the Arctic Carder but that's it.   

Myself and a Sargent from 17 Battery taught the little amount of survival that was taught in Regiment and Hugh never gave any input in fact he was never involved.
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

Skills4Survival

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Re: Psychology
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2012, 10:04:22 PM »
Assuming there is one :-) Well, there is some nuance. You can still die in the way Leach describes:

I (he...)prefer to talk of psychogenic death: a biological process takes place as in natural death, but it is triggered at a premature stage in the person’s life when they are under duress. (from the article I mentioned earlier). Call that moment.."not having the will to live".

[Ivo] The question here is why. Not having the will is not sufficient and not proven in that scientific sense. Is a human able to have "the will to live" under certain circumstances, and/or can it be influenced.  The process is not fully understood.

He talks about extrinsic survival (in a situation not previously experienced), in which you have to adapt our behaviour. This ..required goal directed behaviour. What he tells in the article is that this capability (goal directed behaviour) is the first thing to shut down under threat. (not fail..shut down). There...the cognitive approach to survival was born.

Quote, also explained in his book: Analysis of disaster incidents show that survival behaviour follows a pattern reflected in the following psychodynamic sequence: pre-impact, impact, recovery,
rescue and post-trauma (Leach, 1994). During this sequence, victims will commonly show cognitive paralysis, stereotypical behaviour, perseveration, hyperactivity and hypoactivity.

This paralysis (mainly in the impact and recovery phase) is well documented according to Leach. The deaths, as a result of this paralysis (psychogenic death) happens (psch very often within the three days, exactly the time which is needed to recoil from a disaster in general. So, you can ask yourself how fair it is to just say :  the person did not have the will to live.

Same as..he did not pick up his coffee (leaving out the fact that he does not have arms or legs), rendering is nearly impossible. IN other words, getting back to your goal oriented behaviour is BLOCKED.

In the article from robinson and bridges, it says;
If cognitive and physiological changes under threat lead to a reduction in cognitive functions such as working memory, then utilisation of areas of the brain that are more likely to be unaffected
by exposure to stressful events would be  useful. For example, training that reduces the burden on working memory by laying down procedural memories on how to use safety equipment could help lead to purposeful action during an emergency. This highlights the need for safety training to incorporate a practical element, not just to rely on reading a book or watching a video.

MY PERSONAL TAKE: Having no knowledge on how our mind actually works...I do know that keeping stresslevels down will help. That means that being prepared in skill and to some extend in your mind, can help. How you respond in a real disaster (shipwreck, bombing, hostage taking, aircrash, etc.) is almost impossible to predict I would say. So..summarized, training for specific situations, simulating disasters, etc, thereby lowering the impact on working memory.

What is not addressed (a bit in the second article) is the long-term survival, for that I am not sure, if I read the information in the article. So, I think we need to conceptualize and thereby re-think the current approach on  "will to survive" as a generic concept:

- immediate impact < e.g. 2 hours
- short term < 3 days
- longer term > 3 days

Or, of course, use the stages Leach describes and put "operationalize" them for the "end user to be", giving it hands and feet.

I have not read about a definite concept. I do see that for longer term, the psychological affects are quite clear, the question I have there is..how would you cope with things like boredom. Say to yourself...I have to keep busy. Whether it really works like that, in the mind, I do not know.


Ivo

Skills4Survival

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Re: Psychology
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2012, 10:18:44 PM »
Outside of the Field Manual 21-76, The US Army Field Manual I always look at Airforce fieldmanual 64-4, which is more complete. In addition I really like the book of the brothers Craighead (How to survive on land and sea, 4th edition). Also the "psychology of wilderness survival" by Ferri (although it is not all about that at all), which has some really practical things in it. I also like the old version of J. Wayne Fears. Ray Mears has a few nice books, also because it is illlustrated nice (which is in general not that nice for survival books). Although Hugh Mcmanners does a reasonable job at it (commando survival book). Same goes for Colin Towell (Handboek survival, in dutch). National Geographic also has a nice illustrated guide. And ofcourse the good old lofte one. Although good, never understand why the illustration is not more realistic (has to be fun to read as well). In addition, essentials of sea survival by golden /tipton. Bushcraft from Kochanski really adds some value to the others, lots of detail on a few topics, but again, illustration not that nice, although the book is really good I believe.

No disrespect, in my opinion but the only two book worth the paper you have mentioned is the Outdoor Survival Guide by J Wayne Fears and bushcraft by Mors. Although Mors in Person is a nightmare to learn from he is as scatty as a musk rat. The other books just drag up the same stuff over and over again.

We sale product to Ray in fact I will be seeing him again next week. His first two books were ok but you need first additions of them to get all the best info. As Ray became more famous he started doing what cooks do leaving out important parts of the recipe. Ray knows his stuff but don't be fooled he is a TV presenter. 

Hugh Mcmanners was an officer in Artillery he was in my regiment in was BC of 17 Battery before leaving the Army. As an officer he worked on the OP's directing Artillery fire on to the enemy, the same job I did but with out the pips. Before that  he was in 29 Commando Royal Artillery he was never a Royal Marine. His survival skills were not all that, ok he ran the jungle warfare center in Belize so he knew his way in the jungle and I think he might have done the Arctic Carder but that's it.   

Myself and a Sargent from 17 Battery taught the little amount of survival that was taught in Regiment and Hugh never gave any input in fact he was never involved.

None taken :-) Well, the USA Airforce fieldmanual 64-4 still is quite good, and around for a very long time. I like the books from Hugh and Towell because they are nicely illustrated. Whether or not the writer has a lot of experience, I do not care that much. From research I can see in other books (on my shelf) that what is written is not nonsense...just more nicely illustrated and in some cases therefore more clear.  I agree that the book from Ray are not specific enough (possibly not to loose the large audience), same happens btw in his courses..becauese the course..follows the book. If I research 100 survival books and go on a few good courses, but have very little experience..how good will the end result be? I wonder how much experience you need to write a good (or..successful) book...:-)...it is not rocket science.




Ivo

Brian

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Re: Psychology
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2012, 10:37:28 PM »
... For example, training that reduces the burden on working memory by laying down procedural memories on how to use safety equipment could help lead to purposeful action during an emergency. This highlights the need for safety training to incorporate a practical element, not just to rely on reading a book or watching a video. . . . That means that being prepared in skill and to some extend in your mind, can help. . . .

(My emphasis.) 

That's very well put, IMO.  After the disaster-facing soul has grasped that s/he's in a major pickle, then the training kicks in, if the experience of training is available and the person need have only enough will-to-survive to begin implementing the procedural steps.  (I guess what I'm thinking is that the more extensive the training and experience, the less important would be the will-to-survive.)

I've never been in combat, but it seems to me that somewhat the same mechanism might be operative when, say, a unit is ambushed ("I didn't have time to think.  I just reverted to my training.").

It seems to me that for the will-to-survive to be really important, it would be when an individual was confronted by a situation he'd never contemplated.  For example, for someone who's been trained for wilderness survival, even if that training is limited, his will-to-survive would be of much less importance to his survival if lost in the wilderness than if, for example, he found himself adrift at sea in a lifeboat, having never even contemplated that situation.

Just some thoughts from a guppy.

adi

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Re: Psychology
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2012, 10:56:26 PM »
Ok I see where you are coming from now. The will to survive is not part of the initial reaction to an incident but being able to force cognitive think is. If you can think straight you live if you can't your chances lesson. This is important to know in emergency's or disasters. When something happens your brain rewinds 10 million year to the walnut sized brain in your head whos name escapes me at the moment. All you can do is evacuate your bowls and run or fight but because you have not experienced it before you and you do not have a bear breathing down your neck you cant assess the danger so you don't know whether to run or fight you have now overloaded that part of the brain so you just do not know what to do so you freeze to the spot. If you have not been directly involved your brain is rewinding but you have not had that huge kick of adrenalin so you are less likely freeze but stay goal focused and carry on with the last task in your head and if that was to get on a tube train to go to work you walk head long into a tube station on fire and die. with no recollection of the danger.

In wilderness survival it is slightly different in most cases because the realisation that you are in trouble is often a lot slower, often over a couple of hours or more. Once you realise it seems to hit you like a ton of bricks. You get that adrenaline dump and you go into fight of flight. If you are by yourself the chances are you will run but if you are with someone to whom you have no emotional attachment with you might fight or at least shout at each other, blaming the other for the problem. Once this becomes aggressive we often get another adrenalin dump which sends us both running in opposite directions. This is why I say you must sit down and take a few minutes to calm down and take some deep breaths. Smoking is great for this because smoking really does help to regulate your breathing in times of stress.

Once you are past this stage you go into the longer term effects where giving up is a real problem. One of the biggest things to make you give up is fear.
Fear kills many people. What do we have to fear?
Ridicule and embarrassment
Punishment
Being alone, this destroys many people
Animals including insects
Darkness
The Unknown
Death
Discomfort
Ignorance

If there was such a thing as heaven and we could go and ask questions I am sure you would find people that throughout history that have taken their own life because of one or more of the above fears.

The will to survive is for the long term survival. The saying I use if you have survived the first 12 hours there is no physical reason not to survive until you are rescued. For me I would just turn it into an extended camping trip, the chances are it cant throw anything at me that i have not dealt with before so I would kick back and enjoy the experience and start planning how I would spending the money from the book, film deals and television chat shows interviews.

But remember one important think, I don't want anyone giving up because of fear of long term survival. Remember on average people are rescued with in 3 days. People have survived at sea for 3 months and I know of at least 3 people that have survived in arctic conditions for 9 months.

A 9 year old Native American girl survived the winter in the Northern Rockies , Ok she had her native skills to fall back on but as a 9 year old she probably had fears.
 
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche