Author Topic: Spot/In Reach/ PLB - balancing them  (Read 8534 times)

Oakleaf

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Re: Spot/In Reach/ PLB - balancing them
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2014, 08:38:13 AM »
Lyle - the result you see re pictures was a result of my following ( quite possibly in the wrong way - I am the kiss of death on all things IT  :) ) that self same set of instructions. I opened a Photobucket account just to do it.  From past experience of my inept meanderings around technology, likely I've missed something obvious.  Apologies.

Hugh - I understand your points.  Can only iterate its about freedom of choice and freedom to accept responsibility.  There is a fundamental moral issue regards pricing out people from past times. Completely agree that gadget focus is oft at the cost of personal skills - which tend to be cheaper.  But there's a balance when the free choice of someone means the arguably avoidable deployment of SAR assets at a significant £ cost  and imponderable potential cost of assets not being there to cover another incident.

Its an unpleasant thing to attribute a £ sign to someone, but thats the reality of the present world.  A recent Highland Emergency programme showed a helicopter being deployed to assist a walker on Skye who had attempted the Cuillins in a pair of Hi Tec Squash trainers and run into difficulty.

I think we are debating positions along a scale which said scale we in general agree upon.

Hugh Westacott

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Re: Spot/In Reach/ PLB - balancing them
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2014, 10:54:07 AM »
Thus far in our discussions we have expressed opinions based on our personal experiences; I believe that a few facts would be helpful. I follow the news about walking through Grough and the Ramblers' website and am uncomfortably aware that scarcely a day passes without a mountain rescue team answering a call for help.

But, as far as I know, there are remarkably few incidents involving walkers in lowland areas, which may be because they are so minor as not to be worth reporting. We know that every year two or three persons walking with dogs are killed by cattle. Most of these incidents could probably have been avoided had those involved followed the advice of the Ramblers and the National Farmers' Union to let go of the leash and let the dog look after itself. The cattle are interested in the dog; their owners have been trampled because they got in the way. Most dogs can outrun cattle.

I've contacted the Association of Lowland Search and Rescue (ALSAR) to see if they can supply me with the number of searches and incidents that they have attended involving persons deliberately setting out with the intention of walking in the countryside, as distinct from the vulnerable and other unfortunates who have gone missing.

I'll report back!

Hugh

The pursuit of accuracy should not be confused with pedantry. Horace

Lost Soul

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Re: Spot/In Reach/ PLB - balancing them
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2014, 11:25:01 AM »
Hugh’s comment   To satisfy the fears of your family, all you need to do is to leave a photocopy of your map with the route marked on it. In the unlikely event that you fail to return, the police should have a pretty clear idea of where you are likely to be. Is very valid and sound advice, but I had doubts about the nature of the police response for low land areas vs mountainous areas and also the prioritisation given by them in respect of the vulnerability of the individual.  E.g. Well equipped fit walker vs child or dementia sufferer.

So I did snap check on the internet to see what police missing persons response policy had been put into the public domain.

The first item I found was Kent Police’s policy

http://www.kent.police.uk/about_us/policies/n/n037.html

And more enlightening was an FOI request made of The PSNI from which I post some extracts below.

http://www.psni.police.uk/missing_persons_northern_ireland.pdf



Question 4

Are those reported missing designated under different categories (for example, a 4 year old who goes missing may be put into an 'urgent category')?

Answer

The investigation of a missing person is based on the circumstances of the disappearance. Officers recording the initial report will record sufficient information to conduct a risk assessment and initiate a police response. There are varying degrees of risk and police action is guided by the known facts. The vulnerability of a missing person is a strong consideration in establishing the potential risk to the missing person. All persons under 18 years of age are included in the definition of vulnerable.

Question 5

If so, what are these categories, and are there different levels of priority assigned to them (please explain)?

Answer

There are varying degrees of risk and police is guided accordingly. The degrees of risk are defined as:

Low Risk – no apparent threat/danger to the missing person or members of the public.

Medium Risk – the risk posed is likely to put the missing person in danger or threatens other members of the public.

High Risk – the risk posed is immediate and there are substantial grounds for believing the missing person is in danger
through their own vulnerability or mental state, or there are substantial grounds for believing that the public is in danger
as a result of the missing person’s mental state.

Question 6

Are there different responses and procedures for each?

Answer

The Call Grading Policy Directive will determine the immediate response. Upon attending and commencing an investigation, the response/investigator will be determined on risk. If assessed as Medium or Low Risk – the supervisor should be informed immediately and the Duty Officer should be advised as soon as possible who will appoint an investigating officer. If assessed as High Risk – the Duty Officer should be informed immediately and a Crime Manager will direct the investigation.

Question 8

What methods are employed to find them?

Answer

The methods employed and circulation of the missing person will depend upon the circumstances, in line with previous reports (where applicable), information held on databases, and circumstances of the incident that led to the missing person being reported i.e. a hill walker or a child reported missing. Checks will be made with local hospitals, police establishments to determine whether or not the missing person is detained in custody, police officers will be briefed with a description and last known whereabouts, friends contacted if not already done so by relatives etc.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Working on the basis that there will be reasonably standardised policies across all of the UK's Police Forces then the conclusion I draw from this all to brief investigation is that if you are reported missing in a low land area, are properly equipped, known to be fit and of sound mind then its unlikely that here will be an immediate police response or search for you.

And on a personal note I was recently intimately involved with reporting the disappearance of an adult close relative who was vulnerable and highly distressed.  There was no immediate call out of the police helicopter, no massive search parties.  In fact no immediate action at all.  Not until after about 6 hours did we receive a phone call to ask if said person was still missing.  It all resolved it self soon after without any police intervention at all.

I will be interested to see what information Hugh receives in response to his investigations.

Hugh Westacott

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Re: Spot/In Reach/ PLB - balancing them
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2014, 11:40:25 AM »
Oakleaf wrote:

< I am the kiss of death on all things IT  :) ) that self same set of instructions. I opened a Photobucket account just to do it.  From past experience of my inept meanderings around technology, likely I've missed something obvious.  Apologies.>

I'm thinking of founding a club for prople like you and me! Yet I have son with a mastes in computer science from Cambridge. Generally, he's very understanding of my problems but occasionally shakes his head and rolls his eyes heavenwards to indicate that it's beyond belief that he could have a Papa who is so dumb.

Hugh

The proper pursuit of accuracy should not be confused with pedantry.  Horace


Pete McK

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Re: Spot/In Reach/ PLB - balancing them
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2014, 12:24:24 PM »
We were both novice walkers, until after buying the UNM, where now every weekend we are exploring the outdoors and I we use our satnavs, which we bought for £40, as much we do our compasses, carrying the two gives resilience i.e. backup, and owning a PLB it makes sense to carry it for the reasons stated in my previous post.

Maybe if your Father had climbed too he would have no doubt worn hob nail boots, carried a hemp rope and word a cloth cap, and probably also lived to tell the tale. Today people wear Petzl helmets, use dynamic ropes and have footwear which keeps feet dry, supports the ankle and grips the surface far better than hob nail boots, plus use baseplate compasses and satnavs. Most of the population, even people on modest incomes, own a smartphone, computer and flat-screen television. Even children own and use what you refer to as ‘expensive electronic gadgetry’ and they do so to good effect. At my school, a large secondary state school where we have pupils from all social backgrounds I cannot think of one who does not own a smartphone!

I think it is you who needs to get real and move into the 21nd Century ;)

Oakleaf

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Re: Spot/In Reach/ PLB - balancing them
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2014, 12:38:14 PM »
Hugh - yep!  You got it in one on the IT front.

Hugh Westacott

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Re: Spot/In Reach/ PLB - balancing them
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2014, 08:55:33 PM »
Lost Soul: Until I read your latest post I could not comprehend why an experienced walker would carry a PLB in lowland countryside. But I’m sure that if I had had an experience as distressing as yours, I would probably feel the same as you and would rush to buy one.

Pete: I had not realized that you and Emma have only recently taken up walking. I now understand why I have been so puzzled by some of your comments made in our private correspondence.

I fear that I have not made myself clear in my last post. I assure you that I’ve spent the last thirteen years in the 21st century, but it bores me, and am now eagerly looking forward to enjoying the 22nd.

I’m not suggesting that there is anything wrong in kitting ourselves out with ‘expensive gadgetry’, but I believe that it is not essential for most people who walk in lowland countryside. I confess that I’m a little more up to date than my father. I take a 1:25,000 map and carry a baseplate compass although I rarely use it in lowland countryside. I prefer to rely solely on map-reading when walking on paths with which I’m not familiar. A few years ago I backpacked from Minehead to Edale along paths that I had never used before, but never once did I have to use my compass.

I’m bothered by your statement that most families can afford the ‘expensive gadgetry’ of modern walking equipment. I live in Amersham which, along with its neighbour Beaconsfield, has been described as among the wealthiest communities in the UK, yet both towns have food banks. Tonight my wife is attending a meeting at her church to discuss plans to expand the food bank. My son has just completed a two-year internship as a church youth worker in a poor parish in north London and has been profoundly shocked by the grinding poverty that he has witnessed.

Finally, I’d dearly love to know how useful for navigation purposes you found the map contours on your Norfolk trip.

Hugh

Angle of Repose

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Re: Spot/In Reach/ PLB - balancing them
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2014, 06:04:59 PM »
Excellent post Oakleaf.

Full disclosure: I love my electronic gadgets as much as anyone else. With that being said, I fight a constant battle to disconnect from the world when out in the backcountry. In my prior life, I spent a lot of time offshore moving boats from one port to another (yacht deliveries) and we always had an EPIRB with us. So I got used to having one with me whenever I was away from the civilized world.
If I was guiding trips, I would have one for sure. Could be a good selling point to your clients.
Personally, I carry an EPIRB and a handheld ham radio with external antenna when I'm out hiking/camping. The sole reason, if I am out alone and break my leg (compound fracture), depending on how well my note that I left with my wife detailing where I went and when I should return will dictate how long I will be there on the ground waiting for rescue.

As a member of a SAR team locally, it's an excellent tool for those needing serious emergency attention. Not those who need more coffee or other frivolous matters.

"You can't get there from here"