Author Topic: First official mobile app from OS  (Read 7671 times)


Callum

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Re: First official mobile app from OS
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2013, 08:30:41 AM »
I am fortunate to own an iPhone. However, the vast majority of youngsters (11-18) who visit our outdoor centre cannot afford these handsets and instead use the less costly Android handsets. According to research by IDC, there were four Android handsets sold for every iPhone in 2012. I suspect that at the meeting convened to decide which app to develop first was attended by OS executives all with their iPads and iPhones displayed on the table in front of them ;)

Barry G

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Re: First official mobile app from OS
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2013, 04:36:32 PM »
Callum, money speaks the loudest and I'm sure the loudest voice is Apple's! With the release of iphone 5 Apple is cleaning up here in the USA over the other smart phones.

"What  is, is best"

Skills4Survival

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Re: First official mobile app from OS
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2013, 11:43:49 AM »
am really wondering how the Outdoor GPS market and Mobile Phone GPS / Maps market will come together. If my phone would be more outdoor use proof and we had maps lake that...who needs the garmin etrex. It will be a matter of time before software makers have copied the functionality of such devices in to the OS of the phones.
Ivo

Barry G

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Re: First official mobile app from OS
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2013, 04:24:24 PM »
Your correct Ivo, but only if the market ( us ) demands it. My best friends son is a software designer for Apple and he says your head would spin if you knew what they are thinking of for the future. Oh, the future is not much further out than five years.

Barry
"What  is, is best"

Skills4Survival

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Re: First official mobile app from OS
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2013, 05:27:28 PM »
I want is simple, one device, sturdy, long lasting, reliable.  My etrex 10 or etrex H or whether you have, is simply not a match for a smartphone. Be it only because it takes batteries to begin with. GPS signal receiving is not that complicated, having maps on it, also not complicated, seems the outdoor GPS industry has to come up with something to survive the coming 5 years.
Ivo

captain paranoia

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Re: First official mobile app from OS
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2013, 05:43:40 PM »
> am really wondering how the Outdoor GPS market and Mobile Phone GPS / Maps market will come together.

The issue with current smartphones is not the software, it's the lack of environmental and physical robustness, and short battery life.  It's long been observed that smartphones would make far better mapping GPS units than most dedicated GPS receivers, if only they addressed these issues.

The problem is, the smarter the phone, the more processing power it takes, and the more it eats batteries.  Current phone design pretty much assumes you are in an urban environment, and have access to a mains charger every 8 hours or so...

I sometimes use a LOOX N560 PDA as a mapping GPS receiver, but even its 3000mAhr extended battery barely lasts a day if the receiver and mapping is on all the time.

Ideally, we'd probably have something like a 7" tablet* with a display that can be both dynamic (for all the nice films, etc.), and static (i.e. e-paper) to present zero-power mapping.  The display would have to be able to support addressed modification of the static image to support position tracking with a map-centric (rather than user position-centric) display, used just like we would with a map in a map case.

* that's probably big enough for a useful map; an OS map is about 10" diagonal when folded 'naturally').

boogyman

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Re: First official mobile app from OS
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2013, 12:39:00 PM »
The issue with current smartphones is not the software, it's the lack of environmental and physical robustness, and short battery life.

Fully agree with those issues. And their importance should not be under-estimated!

Skills4Survival

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Re: First official mobile app from OS
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2013, 12:46:05 PM »
not only the battery life because an etrex H will run 17 hours, quite some phones will be able to make that as well, depending on their configuration. But the fact it does not take a new set of batteries (AA, AAA) is not helping, unless you take additional (expensive) batteries with you which is not very practical.
Ivo

Callum

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Re: First official mobile app from OS
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2013, 03:51:47 PM »
I have mixed feelings about technology convergence when it is used as an essential item in the field, MTBF (mean time between failures), because if this one item of kit fails you loose everything.

Skills4Survival

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Re: First official mobile app from OS
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2013, 05:26:31 PM »
well, the point is coming you bring a spare all in one device iso a map and compass and additional phone. At one point you can ask yourself the question how do I compare the chances of loosing a map, compared to losing the electronic devices. I am wondering whether commercial pilots have a map with them if all fails. My idea is that they have such a large amount of electronic backup facilities that basically, the risk is mitigated?  Just some thoughts. But...you do need to think about "if I loose it, I loose it all" very valid point.
Ivo

Lost Soul

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Re: First official mobile app from OS
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2013, 10:36:47 AM »
I am wondering whether commercial pilots have a map with them if all fails. My idea is that they have such a large amount of electronic backup facilities that basically, the risk is mitigated?  Just some thoughts. But...you do need to think about "if I loose it, I loose it all" very valid point.

Yes they do its legal requirement for all pilots irrespective of what ever it is they are flying. It flows down form the International Civil Aviation Organisation’s rules.  In the UK it is enshrined in the Air Navigation Order 2009 as amended.  Schedule 4 Scale A (2) Aircraft are re required to carry Maps, charts, codes and other documents and navigational equipment necessary, in addition to any other equipment required under this Order, for the intended flight of the aircraft including any diversion which may reasonably be expected.

Of late of course much of this ‘documentation’ has been digitised particularly on modern transport jets - like the Boeing Dreamliner.  However, backups would have to be made available if safety targets cannot be met.  You can’t just claim its backed up on an iPad that’s ok isn’t it.  No, demonstrate the reliability of the iPad and use the consequence of its failure in respect of aviation industry standard safety targets. 

If failure of the iPad will eventually cause loss of the aircraft and its occupants then minimum expected failure rate is one per 1,000,000,000 operating hours for all causes (114,425 years of continuous operation).  On the other hand if failure will causes major inconvenience for the aircraft and its accupants then minimum expected failure rate is one per 100,000 operating hours for all causes (11.4 years of continuous operation).

If a single device can’t meet the safety target then duplicate or triplicated items will be required. Until the maths stack up to meet the safety targets.

For less sofisticated aircaft pilot's carry paper charts and maps etc etc.  Its cheaper and more relaible and they're only about £17 each.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 10:50:43 AM by Lost Soul »

captain paranoia

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Re: First official mobile app from OS
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2013, 01:46:02 PM »
An MTBF of one billion hours?

I'd be surprised to see anything that can achieve that.  114 thousand years?  Simple corrosion is likely to have occurred in that time...  Even if I carved the thing from stone, or cast it in concrete, it would be gone...

If the airline industry really has MTBF requirements for electronic equipment that are that long, then they are fooling themselves if they think they actually have any piece of equipment that can achieve those figures, or that it can be achieved by simple redundancy.

I' d be interested to see the source of those figures.

It's interesting to note that iPads seems to be used as Electronic Flight Bags.  And that pilots using such EFBs are also allowed to use the iPad to connect to the Internet in hotels, etc.  Just how secure is that EFB, and the data it contains...?  IMHO, not secure at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_flight_bag
http://flightstream.co/archives/271

Lost Soul

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Re: First official mobile app from OS
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2013, 04:22:50 PM »
An MTBF of one billion hours?

I'd be surprised to see anything that can achieve that.  114 thousand years?  Simple corrosion is likely to have occurred in that time...  Even if I carved the thing from stone, or cast it in concrete, it would be gone...

If the airline industry really has MTBF requirements for electronic equipment that are that long, then they are fooling themselves if they think they actually have any piece of equipment that can achieve those figures, or that it can be achieved by simple redundancy.

I'd be interested to see the source of those figures.


At first sight this all might appear to be in the realms of fanatasy but it is easily achievable Captain and we have been doing so for the last 40 years or more.  And we are most certainly not fooling ourselves.

The first port of call is EU Certification Specification 25 (Large Transport Aircraft) paragraph 1309. Equipment, Systems and Installations.   Sub para (b) states  The aeroplane systems and associated components, considered separately and in relation to other systems, must be designed so that -
(1) Any catastrophic failure condition
(i) is extremely improbable; and
(ii) does not result from a single failure;

(The above rule is identical to the American one.)

Extremely improbable = 1 per 1,000,000,000 flight hours.

Complaince with is rule is demonstrated by performing rigerous system safety assessments the guidance and source material for which is contained in

SAE ARP 4761   Guidelines and Methods for Conducting the Safety Assessment Process on Civil Airborne Systems and Equipment
SAE ARP 926B   Fault/Failure Analysis Procedure.
MIL-HDBK-217F   Reliability Prediction of Electronic Equipment
MIL-HDBK-338B   Electronic Reliability Design Handbook

Needless to say simplex systems are not acceptable and unlikely to achieve the required safety targets.  So simple redundancy is achieved by employing triplicated systems.  If you have duplicated system and one goes wrong how do you know which is the defective one?  With triplicated systems voting takes place, two say one thing the third say another go with the two.  And an MTBF of a billion hours can be easily met with triplicated systems. If each has an MTBF of 1,000 hours. Then it’s a case of System 1 and System 2 and System 3 failing simultaneously or near simultaneously which when approached via the methodology of logic gates gives 1,000 x 1,000 x 1,000 = 1,000,000,000; and that is how we do it.

Given the above you can begin to understand why everybody is getting very exercised about the Boeing Dreamliner.  Expections and practise are currently at odds with each other.

EFBs have been around for 10 years or more but until recently have been part of the onboard systems. Its only software after all that functions as part of an existing Display Screen.  And yes iPads are being used for EFBs and I agree with you about the security issues.  Corruption of a vital check list could be pretty distasterous - - - !

Hope this helps.

Lost Soul

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Re: First official mobile app from OS
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2013, 07:57:00 PM »
Further to my post of the 18th January answering Ivo’s question about commercial pilots carrying maps.  As I said it’s a legal requirement that maps are carried.  But in what form the law does not specify. 

Anyway I have just asked a British Airways Captain whom I know what the current policy and practice is.  He advised me that appropriate paper maps / charts and other reference documents are carried on all BA flights.  In reality they are not used on European short haul flights.  They are however used and referred to extensively on long haul flights.  And where BA is concerned paper is likely to be the de rigour medium for the foreseeable future.