Author Topic: Book feedback  (Read 9429 times)

John-C

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Book feedback
« on: November 03, 2011, 11:34:55 PM »
seemed the best place!

Jester

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Re: Book feedback
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2011, 04:49:42 PM »
From my website, The Airdrie Rambler:
If you are going to write a book called The Ultimate Navigation Manual you have to expect it to come under some close scrutiny. This book, by Mountain Rescue team member Lyle Brotherton aims to cover every aspect of land navigation, gathering existing common training with best practice from various military and SAR teams across the world. I first learned of the book on an outdoors website, where its merits and shortcomings were being discussed. My interest was sparked, and I sent off for a copy. Mr Brotherton obviously knows his stuff, but there is the odd part  which is either confusing or wrong. Not wrong in a “Trails magazines’s infamous route off Ben Nevis” wrong. More minor continuity errors than anything. Occasionally there are paragraphs which contradict something already stated elsewhere in the manual, such as the contour interval on 1:25,000 OS maps as being 10m, then in another section 5m (in fact it is mainly 10m, and 5m in areas where there is so little difference in height that 10m contours would not provide enough detail). On page 66 in the expert facts section, it states that declination is known in the military as Grid Magnetic Angle (MVAR). I was a map reading instructor with the army and had never heard the term MVAR. Ever. It is not contained in any of the issue manuals. I googled it and eventually found one very obscure reference to the phrase. The British Army uses the term GMA, Grid Magnetic Angle, which is the angle of declination between magnetic north and the grid.
One completely wrong fact is that “gates are not marked on OS Landranger or Explorer maps”. Gates may be marked on OS Landranger maps, although not all are, and you will find the symbol on the map legend. As I say not serious mistakes, just enough to keep pedants like myself busy for a while!

There are some minor inconsistencies, such as the use of bold grey type within paragraphs, which are meant to refer you to the index. Some have the page number listed next to them, others don’t, and in at least one case the point referred to isn’t indexed. These are more proof reading or publishing errors, and are niggles which in time will be picked up and corrected. Don’t however let these moans put you off, this is after all the first edition. I’m overwhelmingly confident there will be a second and a third edition, because once tidied up this will be the bible of land navigation. From the basics of what is a map, to datums, compasses and  bearings, ancillary equipment to satellite navigation systems and computer mapping, I can think of very little which is not covered. There are some very good sections on specialist navigation techniques, and while I would perhaps argue with their order of preference (I would rank night navigation first, over all others, but that’s just my opinion) you can’t say that there are any glaring omissions. It’s also very welcoming that Mr Brotherton seriously recommends the use of satellite navigation. Many people who ask for advice on which unit to buy are often sneeringly told to learn to use a map and compass instead. That’s not the case here, with almost everything (and I say almost only to cover myself) covered, right down to which type of batteries should be used. For many years I have been advocating Geocaching to anyone wishing to get to become proficient with satellite navigation units, and it’s good to see it rates a mention here, as it is undoubtedly an aid to learning.

The author is obviously aiming this at an international market, and the occasional references to azimuths show that, a term more familiar on the American side of the Atlantic. That’s nothing surprising when you look at his track record, having taught search and rescue techniques in over 24 different countries! There is, what appears to me to be a degree of product placement in the book, with repeated plugs for a particular brand of compass and a particular brand of rather expensive binocular most apparent. Likewise it is the highly praised compasses one deficiency which has probably led to the development of Mr Brothertons take on the romer, which he sells from the website which is associated with the book. The book is designed in part to be used with the website. The website is still in its infancy and new content is continually being added. From here, amongst other things, you can download a programme of activities which you can use in conjunction with the book as a guide for beginners. Video content is used to explain some of the techniques in the book, and you can use the forum to contact the author.

There is nothing earth shattering in the book. Almost everything is available elsewhere, spread across a variety of titles. What the writer has done is bring all these techniques together in one volume, and explained them with clear and easy to understand diagrams and pictures. Whether you are a complete beginner, an occasional dabbler or an old hand this book has something to offer you. If it doesn’t, your name is probably Lyle Brotherton.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 11:02:38 PM by Jester »
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adi

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Re: Book feedback
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2011, 10:52:58 PM »
Hi Jester welcome to the forum. I see you have taken most of the comments made by Hugh Westacott on Outdoor Magic.

I am sure Lyle will add his thoughts and comments on your post once he returns on Monday.

I can tell you one thing though, the book is only around half the content of the original transcript. The publishers asked Lyle to reduce the content as they felt it was too detailed and well above the level of understanding for the average person. Lyle said the book was proofread numerous times by the publisher but still some mistakes still got through.

I personally have not read or seen a book that covers sat nav in such detail. There are some areas on the map and compass sections that I have come across in my travels but have never seen written in a book before and I also learnt a couple of things that I have never come across before.

It is a damn lot easier to criticize a book than it is to write one, and I believe that some mistakes can and should be forgiven.

Just some notes on your post.

In the (British) Army Declination was/is called Declination, Grid Magnetic Angle was used to describe declination and GMA was/is used as an abbreviation for when recording the angle in writing.

Secondly can you please show us where a field boundary is shown in an OS map legend and the symbol for a gateway? There is none. The only time you can guess that there is a gateway through a field boundary is where an established track is shown to cross the field boundary. If there is no established track there is no gateway shown. In some cases the field boundary is solid where it crosses the track which we can assume means it is gated and in other cases the field bounder has a break where it crosses the track suggests no gate but that can only be taken as a guide as this may only be correct at the time of survey which in most cases was before 1978.

One thing to note is that toll gates are no longer shown on OS maps.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 11:00:40 PM by adi »
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

Jester

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Re: Book feedback
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2011, 11:21:51 PM »
Hi Jester welcome to the forum. I see you have taken most of the comments made by Hugh Westacott on Outdoor Magic.

I am sure Lyle will add his thoughts and comments on your post once he returns on Monday.

I can tell you one thing though, the book is only around half the content of the original transcript. The publishers asked Lyle to reduce the content as they felt it was too detailed and well above the level of understanding for the average person. Lyle said the book was proofread numerous times by the publisher but still some mistakes still got through.

I personally have not read or seen a book that covers sat nav in such detail. There are some areas on the map and compass sections that I have come across in my travels but have never seen written in a book before and I also learnt a couple of things that I have never come across before.

It is a damn lot easier to criticize a book than it is to write one, and I believe that some mistakes can and should be forgiven.

Just some notes on your post.

In the (British) Army Declination was/is called Declination, Grid Magnetic Angle was used to describe declination and GMA was/is used as an abbreviation for when recording the angle in writing.

Secondly can you please show us where a field boundary is shown in an OS map legend and the symbol for a gateway? There is none. The only time you can guess that there is a gateway through a field boundary is where an established track is shown to cross the field boundary. If there is no established track there is no gateway shown. In some cases the field boundary is solid where it crosses the track which we can assume means it is gated and in other cases the field bounder has a break where it crosses the track suggests no gate but that can only be taken as a guide as this may only be correct at the time of survey which in most cases was before 1978.

One thing to note is that toll gates are no longer shown on OS maps.
Hi Adi,
You are correct, Hugh did initially highlight the difference in contour intervals. I did check this with various sources, and it was a fair comment. A very minor slip, one for the pedants amongst us! :D I'm sure it's a print error, and will be sorted in future editions.

You will find the gate symbol here in the roads and paths section:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ordnancesurvey.co.uk%2Fdocs%2Flegends%2F50k-raster-legend.pdf
You will find gates marked on OS 1:50,000 maps at the following grids:
NS 82088 65466
NS 82718 64596
NS 81008 63086

As I said, not all gates are marked, but some are. At no time did I say that field boundaries appeared on the OS legend, and in any case they do not.
 :)
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 11:29:17 PM by Jester »
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
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adi

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Re: Book feedback
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2011, 12:07:00 AM »
Lol I knew you would pull up the 1:50000 key to show that it had a gate on it. That normally shows an access control gate in the form of a toll road or a manned traffic control. They do not indicate gateways in field boundaries and the like. Which I believe is the context of Lyle's comment in the book. And again I believe he was referring to 1:25000 where field boundaries are shown on mapping.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 01:23:23 AM by adi »
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

Lyle Brotherton

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Re: Book feedback
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2011, 12:01:40 PM »
Great articles to read Pete & Jester and as always the ever tenacious Adi (you should have been a gunner!) and supportive Callum; it is terrific to have all 41 members of this Forum on-board.

The answer to the question you pose Callum, and I truly value your consideration, is probably a little different from what I would have answered 10 years ago.

This morning I have sat at my laptop and scribed a candid statement about me. Reading first it may give you some background to my answer.

http://micronavigation.com/1675/my-raison-d’etre/

I need members to feedback and review the book for the reason that I do not see this work as an end-point, rather the beginning of a continuous journey, where each reprint will include updates, re-writes and new details that you share with me on this forum and I discover through my work.

The outstanding Eric Langmuir, who sadly I only met once before his death, gave me this salient advice and I have taken it to heart.

However, reviews are holistic, in that they consider the entire work, and I am keen that we do not as a group funnel ourselves into the minutiae of 'gate openings in fences' etc.; rather we discuss these details elsewhere on this Forum.

Lastly, this review section allows me to expand more upon the reasoning behind much of the text and state facts that the publishers did not see space for; I will make this my next post.
“Opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance” - Plato

adi

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Re: Book feedback
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2011, 12:16:12 PM »
Well said Callum and I respect Jester for coming onto the forum and posting his comments.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 06:15:15 PM by Lyle Brotherton »
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

Jester

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Re: Book feedback
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2011, 06:15:50 PM »
Well said Callum but I respect Jester for coming onto the forum and posting his comments. He has come from a site that is giving both good and bad comments on the book. At least Jester has the balls to come here and speak his mind and give Lyle the chance to tell his side of things.

The only problem I have with Jester is that his post is appearing all over the web which is fine but why is he posting negative comments, even worse the same post copied and pasted all over the web without first talking with Lyle? I wonder what your game is Jester or should that be Jim Cassidy? There has to be a motive. Who are you and what is your background?
I did introduce myself as the Airdrie Rambler, and you can find out about me on my blog. ;) If anything isn't covered, please ask away. I've nothing to hide. As you say I have come from a site which is posting good and bad comments about the book. Overwhelmingly the comments are good, or I wouldn't have bought it. I didn't simply skim through and cut and paste others comments, I read it in detail, checking and cross referencing. There are a few minor errors. I could simply have catalogued these and passed them off a review, which would have been entirely negative of me, and would present an unfair picture of the book. Personally I think Hugh on Outdoors Magic is being forced to defend his corner to the extent he appears to be overly critical, but that's another discussion entirely, which I will leave to that website.

I post on numerous websites, and where it warrants it, such as reviews/trip reports, I will write one piece and cut and paste it on to various sites (Walk Highlands, Outdoors Magic, Scottish Hills, TGO, LFTO and my own blog). I may tailor it slightly for one site or another, but on the whole it's the same review. I have no motive, check out my reviews for the Garmin Oregon, OMM Rucksacks, etc. I just try to give my honest opinion so that others may benefit. I have NEVER run a review past a manufacturer ever, and would be loathe to do so. I would hope that anyone reading any of my reviews would see them as fair and honest (and the feedback I have had suggests that they do).

I personally thought it was a very positive review. Many people come on to forums, make one overwhelmingly positive review of an item/website/book/etc, and don't return, and these are generally viewed as someone with a connection to the product. I would hope that is not the case with my review and that people are encouraged to buy it, as it deserves as wide an audience as possible. As I said in the review I think that this book will in time become the bible of land navigation. It covers virtually everything, and in great detail. If that's a bad review I don't know what a good one is.
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
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adi

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Re: Book feedback
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2011, 07:49:57 PM »
Hi Jester. first of all I apologize for coming across so strong. I am sure you understand that their are people out there that trawl the websites just to be negative. Personally I think negativity is can be a very positive thing. Please don't take my comments comments as a personal slant on yourself or me attacking you. I only added a name after reading an Amazon review, I am not sure if that is you or not. I think you have brought up some interesting points and I was testing you to see if they were your own comments or others. As I originally said, thanks for joining the site and adding your comments. Lyle and I spoke earlier and were both in agreement that your post is very good.

I hope you stay and continue adding content.

Can you post a link to your blog please.
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

Jester

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Re: Book feedback
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2011, 08:34:05 PM »
Cheers Adi. It was indeed my amazon review (first time I've done one).
My blog is at www.airdrierambler.wordpress.com. It's a mix of walk reports, gear reviews and access issues.
Looking forward to sticking around and seeing the site grow.
Regards,
Jim
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
Groucho Marx

Jester

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Re: Book feedback
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2011, 08:43:54 PM »
Great articles to read Pete & Jester and as always the ever tenacious Adi (you should have been a gunner!) and supportive Callum; it is terrific to have all 41 members of this Forum on-board.

The answer to the question you pose Callum, and I truly value your consideration, is probably a little different from what I would have answered 10 years ago.

This morning I have sat at my laptop and scribed a candid statement about me. Reading first it may give you some background to my answer.

http://micronavigation.com/1675/my-raison-d’etre/

I need members to feedback and review the book for the reason that I do not see this work as an end-point, rather the beginning of a continuous journey, where each reprint will include updates, re-writes and new details that you share with me on this forum and I discover through my work.

The outstanding Eric Langmuir, who sadly I only met once before his death, gave me this salient advice and I have taken it to heart.

However, reviews are holistic, in that they consider the entire work, and I am keen that we do not as a group funnel ourselves into the minutiae of 'gate openings in fences' etc.; rather we discuss these details elsewhere on this Forum.

Lastly, this review section allows me to expand more upon the reasoning behind much of the text and state facts that the publishers did not see space for; I will make this my next post.
Hi Lyle,
Hopefully the website and forum will help expand the book beyond the constraints of the printed page. If possible I'd like to see a video of radial arms as I think I understand it, but I'm not 100% sure.
All the best,
Jim
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
Groucho Marx

Lyle Brotherton

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Re: Book feedback
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2011, 09:15:20 AM »
Spooky Jester, I had planned for today to film radial arms as forecast is clear sunshine (as you know, a luxury here in Scotland).

I liked your review as you have obviously read it cover to cover and take it as a great compliment that you think the work may become the land-navigation bible - I sincerely hope so as a mark of respect to all the folk I have worked with and used their knowledge.

I juggled between NightNav and Bad Weather being the most important of the specialist sections. The editors at Harper Collin's wanted conformity and it was decided, with my agreement, to arrange the specialist sections in alphabetical order.

MVAR - Mea Culpa! The Special Forces I have worked with the most over the last 7 years are predominately American: the home of acronyms! MVAR is a term used by the para-squadrons, whereas the boys at Hereford call it Declination in the classroom and MagDec in the field.

Product placement was something I avoided like the plague, refusing a substantial advance (a euphemism for a bribe) from a manufacturer whose products actually appear extensively in the book! Instead, all of the tools are the ones I both personally prefer and use.

Gates: I am going to leave this to you boys then take all the credit on my first re-print ;D

Yes you are right Adi, loads of proof-readers: every section was read by a specialist within that sphere i.e. Geoff Summers - Arctic & Alpine, then the entire book by five professional navigators plus Harper Collin's editors. One of the main challenges I faced was reducing the copy by almost half, mainly from the Satnav/EMP & Digital Mapping sections, although some compass techniques were deemed too esoteric, so I am going to use the forum to expand upon the written page of the book and will post various components of the unpublished manuscript, then folk can pick & choose.
“Opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance” - Plato

adi

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Re: Book feedback
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2011, 11:36:33 AM »
Cheers Adi. It was indeed my amazon review (first time I've done one).
My blog is at www.airdrierambler.wordpress.com. It's a mix of walk reports, gear reviews and access issues.
Looking forward to sticking around and seeing the site grow.
Regards,
Jim

Jester, I had a quick flick through your blog last night, very interesting indeed, I will be popping back for a more in depth read.
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

Egg

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Re: Book feedback
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2011, 06:53:17 PM »
Been dipping into the book for a number of weeks now rather than reading it from cover to cover in one hit. So am definitely starting to regard it as my "one stop shop" for all things navigational.

Prior to this it would be a touch of, "I wonder what xxxx says about this?" and having to wander through a pile of books and mags to collect info and ideas. As Lyle has said, his book is a work in progress that will evolve over time and with the amount of material he must have left out we could be heading for an encyclopaedia of navigation rather than a bible.

This book was long over due, stuff that was already on the market being very limited in quality and content. I can think of only one other book, by a recent star of a tv prog, that I would recommend to anyone prior to this.

There may be things in the book that people have picked up on that are errors or whatever, but they occur in every new publication, so I've not looked at it in that light.

Coupled with this forum I hope that will grow into a great resource for us for all things navigational.  :P
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Pete McK

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Re: Book feedback
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2011, 11:45:44 AM »
Since I was one of the goofy password folk :P it has at least given me the chance to restate:

BRILLIANT BOOK LYLE :)

We have really taken this work to heart and it has been incredibly valuable in teaching us as complete novices, land navigation.

Emma took it into the school where she teaches and the geography department have now ordered several copies - we need to talk about commission ;)

Seriously, thanks Lyle