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Training => First Aid => Topic started by: Callum on June 26, 2013, 07:56:09 AM

Title: Lyme disease
Post by: Callum on June 26, 2013, 07:56:09 AM
All of our team leaders at the centre need to be ever vigilant with the youngsters we are responsible for about their exposure to Lyme disease. So far none have contracted it but two of our instructors did and very unpleasant it was for one of them. Luckily, because we are vigilant about this disease it was spotted early in both of them and treatment was quick.

It is contracted via ticks, something we get a great deal of in the Lakeland Fells, so covering legs and arms is a must when tick numbers are at their peak and looking out for the following signs and symptoms:
•skin rashes
•headaches
•fevers
•depression

If it is untreated serious complications can arise.

So a feature on BBC R4 yesterday grabbed our attention, a trial is going on in Germany and Austria with a vaccine for this disease and initial results are very encouraging, according to the report is that it may be available in the UK within the next three years and it is something I most certainly will be encouraging all of our team leaders to consider.
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: Pete McK on June 26, 2013, 10:59:48 AM
Is it easy to spot Cal and do you treat the tick bite if you have one on you?

Doubtless with the kayaking you also watch out for Weil’s disease, although I know the UK suffers less with this than many European countries.
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: boogyman on June 26, 2013, 08:17:50 PM
If you react "rapidly" Lyme's disease is easy to treat -- with antibiotics.

BUT... the first recognizable symptom appears several weeks after the tick bite, in exactly the same place of the bite, and then:
- you have to remember you had a tick bite there
- the GP has to recognoze it as such
- and treat it immediately

Jan, an acquaintance of mine got a tick bite, his GP dismissed the symptoms as something different, and now since years Jan's life is hell -- and will never get better. Most days he has very much pain, some days are bearable. He's declared "disabled" forever.
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: Callum on June 27, 2013, 09:53:15 AM
Some story Boogyman!

Pete, the death of Great Britain's double Olympic champion rower Andy Holmes MBE from Weil's disease – Latin name leptospirosis - really brought home the seriousness of this disease for canoeists and divers, or anyone who comes into contact with lakes and rivers, and we improved our procedures at the centre, which had been covering cuts, scratches or sores with a waterproof plaster and of course watching out for any symptoms, to now every participant showering after going out on the river.
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: captain paranoia on June 27, 2013, 05:47:18 PM
We encountered a lot of ticks on a DofE bronze practice a couple of weeks ago, brushing through recent undergrowth.

I'm aware that infection can be very unpleasant, and I raised the risk assessment severity to 4 (serious injury) out of 5 (death) when I revised it last year, and added follow-up checks as a mitigation action.

http://www.bada-uk.org/learn/FAQ/faqborreliosis.php (http://www.bada-uk.org/learn/FAQ/faqborreliosis.php)
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: Callum on June 28, 2013, 06:05:14 AM
CP I was not aware that there was a website dedicated to ticks, it is v. good, thx for the link :)
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: adi on June 29, 2013, 12:25:41 AM
Lyme Disease is nasty, Hard to diagnose and hard to treat. I would put it on par with both TB and histoplasmosis, Which as you know I have had to deal with both. Lyme Disease is another Disease that the UK is lacking in knowledge of, diagnoses of and treatment of.

Here in the UK they once again rely on Blood tests for diagnosis, which is the same for TB and histoplasmosis but I can tell you these sort of diseases are sneaky little buggers and blood tests are not very effective. In France they test for Lyme's by taking a muscle biopsy which is considered a far better test. Here in the UK the treatment is with a long course of old style anti antibiotics, You have guessed it similar to TB and histoplasmosis. These drugs were developed back in the 50s and 60s and are very harsh often making the patent fill worse than they where before taking them. The dose is often for a long time. I see in the article above they say a 3 week course of drugs but in reality it is much longer. In most cases I know of the patents where on the same treatment pattern as I was with TB and histoplasmosis, which is a minimum of 6 months treatment.

Be aware of the sort of websites like the one posted, OK they are a registered charity but that is no means a test of there professionalism. Charities like this are often set up by ex suffers or headed up by Doctors that do not necessarily know the true facts and go on what medical journals or information from the net, which is often out of date. On the site posted I could not find any reference to any medical professional or body, that rings alarm bells for me.

Another alarm bell is this sentence taken from their permissions page. I quote "Special acknowledgements go to Gardensafari.net, Centres for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), Derm Atlas, The State of Queensland (Department of Employment, Economic Development and Innovation), CSIRO Livestock Industries, Hilton Pond Centre, Dr Adam Smith, Jeff Hahn and H3D." Found here http://www.bada-uk.org/homesection/legal/Permission.php (http://www.bada-uk.org/homesection/legal/Permission.php) This again suggests that it is someone acting outside of the medical profession.

I will gladly put some limited information together when I have time and will add it to the first aid page. I say limited because good reliable information on Lymes is limited and hard to come by. I also say when I get a moment. This is the 3rd week I have worked 12 to 16 hours a day, 7 days a week preparing for late entry to have a booth at the Outdoor Show in Friedrichshafen, Germany starting on the 11th of July and I am only 2/3 of the way completed And once I have completed set up I will be in Germany for the 4 days running the booth by myself. And on return I need to start again for the Trade show up in the Lakes which the name of has escaped me then getting ready for the OTS. So once I get a couple of minutes over the summer I will post something but please be patent.         
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: captain paranoia on June 30, 2013, 12:43:47 AM
I don't think BADA underplays the problems of Lyme disease, or tries to say that treatment is simple, or that a cure is guaranteed.

BADA seem to be trying very hard to raise awareness of Lyme disease in the UK, where a common reaction from GPs is "we don't get Lyme disease in the UK".  The information may not be perfect, but it certainly isn't trying to make out that Lyme disease is nothing to worry about.

I'd certainly welcome any further, referenced information on better treatment regimes than those suggested by CDC or BNF.
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: adi on June 30, 2013, 01:02:05 AM
I'd certainly welcome any further, referenced information on better treatment regimes than those suggested by CDC or BNF.

See this is where the problem lies. The CDC refer the reader to the USA and they say that treatment is normally swift which is true if reported early and treated early.

The BNF is a register of drugs and does not address conditions directly.

The official information is weak at best which is the same for many diseases. Medicine is very archaic in that if they find a treatment that works they continue to use it and stop looking for better treatments.

CDC info on Lynes can be seen here http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/ (http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/)   
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: adi on June 30, 2013, 01:32:40 AM
Callum said he was not aware of a website for ticks, well there are a couple dedicated to lymes. they are

http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/ (http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/)
http://www.wadhurst.demon.co.uk/lyme/ (http://www.wadhurst.demon.co.uk/lyme/)
http://www.bada-uk.org/ (http://www.bada-uk.org/)


Then if you search lymes disease there are thousands of sites with medical information

And every body with a connection with the outdoors seem to have a page about it and most disturbing I have recently seen websites dedicated to baby well being and new mothers have started adding pages about Lymes.

Most of these sites just recycle information from other sites but my point is and if the reaction of GP's is we don't get Lymes here in the UK something is failing.   
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: Pete McK on July 01, 2013, 07:34:14 AM
Adi, we have had to remove ticks, from walking through the local fells, and always do it with a tick remover (actually got it for our dog). Do you know what the best advice is to put on the small wound?
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: Lyle Brotherton on July 01, 2013, 08:10:33 AM
The tropical medicine doctor who I consulted prior to my extended trip to the Amazonian Rainforest, advised me to carry Pfizer’s Chlorohexidine and Cetrimide Steritube, which is and antiseptic and detergent solution for small cuts and abrasions. I took a box; they contain 30mls ampoules and stain the area yellow so you can see where the solution has got to.

I replaced it with Savalon spray, because I like it’s pump dispenser to help flush out any debris in the wound BUT looking at the label it does not appear to contain the Chlorohexadine, so maybe I will go back to the more expensive Pfizer product AND Pete I don’t know if it helps with Lyme disease.

(http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz349/XQP/SnipImage-B5100F99-E1C9-481A-BB7E-5C48DE3D910A_zpsc141bd85.png) (http://s842.photobucket.com/user/XQP/media/SnipImage-B5100F99-E1C9-481A-BB7E-5C48DE3D910A_zpsc141bd85.png.html)
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: adi on July 01, 2013, 05:32:45 PM
Adi, we have had to remove ticks, from walking through the local fells, and always do it with a tick remover (actually got it for our dog). Do you know what the best advice is to put on the small wound?

My advice is to wipe the area with a sterile wipe before and after removing the tick but there is a caveat and that is do not touch the tick with the wipe. The reason is if the substance irritates the tick the tick will disengage. The problem with that is if the tick is irritated it needs to eject the contents of it stomach in to you to be able to disengage this is how most Lyme's is passed on. So clean the area away from the tick. Using a pair of iris forceps (the sort with a fine curve). Grasp the tick as close to your skin as possible being careful to avoid squeezing the engorged body. pull the tick out with out twisting.   As advised by the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine and the London Hospital for Tropical Diseases.     

I have just checked the NHS choice and they advice much the same

Quote
Ticks

If you have been bitten by a tick (a small arachnid), remove it as soon as possible to reduce the risk of getting a tick-borne infection, such as Lyme disease (a bacterial infection that causes a rash).
To remove the tick:
Use tweezers, wear gloves or cover your fingers with tissue to avoid touching the tick.
Grab the tick as close to the skin as you can, and gently pull straight up until all parts are removed.
Do not twist or jerk the tick as you are removing it because this may cause the mouth parts to break off and remain in your skin once the tick has been removed.
Wash your hands with soap and water.
Using petroleum jelly, alcohol or a lit match to remove a tick does not work.
After the tick has been removed, clean the tick bite with soap and water or an antiseptic, such as an iodine scrub.
Do not scratch the bite because this will cause further swelling and increase the chance of infection. Most tick bites will heal within three weeks. See your GP if you develop:
a rash
a temperature of 38C (100.4F) or over (fever)
You may need antibiotics to prevent Lyme disease.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Bites-insect/Pages/Treatment.aspx

Please please do not use these. If you have them keep them for your pets only
(http://silvercoastangelicdogs.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/tick-remover.png)

I have seen doctors use these, I have seen them on Forestry Commission and Local Council posters telling people use one of these tools to remove ticks.

These tools were invented as a pet product, It has never been test on people by any medical testing organisation nor have any medical approval.

There is a suggestion as yet unproven that the best course of action might be to not remove the tick at all and let it do its own thing but that is only a theory with no scientific evidence.

Ok I best post an image of iris forceps for you so you know what I am talking about

(http://www.medical-supplies-equipment-company.com/files/media/images/-4in-1x2-Teeth-Full-Curved-Iris-Tissue-Forcep-1.jpg)

Lifesystems have some tick removers that are very good, I have one and can recommend them but Iris Forceps are cheaper and are useful in the first aid kit for other things not tick related.   

(http://www.lifesystems.co.uk/img/insect-repel/600/6580-Tick-Remover.jpg)
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: captain paranoia on July 01, 2013, 06:23:17 PM
> but my point is and if the reaction of GP's is we don't get Lymes here in the UK something is failing.

Sadly, it appears something is failing in the UK.  That's why BADA exists; to try to educate GPs to the problems of Lyme disease.  Its FAQ section addresses the difficulties of getting a diagnosis (due to inadequacies in awareness and the diagnostic tests that exist), and the differing opinions on the best form of treatment, the difficulty of treating well-established infections, and the problems of after-effects of infection.  I have no connection with BADA (other than possibly buying my tick twister from one of their stands at a show), but their website seems fairly balanced to me, providing information on a fairly technical subject at a level that can be understood by most readers.

I've got two friends who both suffered long-term problems from Lyme disease, and had to undergo extensive, prolonged antibiotic therapy.  Fortunately, this therapy was eventually successful.  The level of treatment that is required seems to depend on the degree to which infection has become established; the disease may be caught early and treated with a shorter course of antibiotics

Whilst the CDC is indeed a US organisation, it has a worldwide remit, and has a worldwide reputation.  My (outdated) copy of BNF discusses both drugs and the conditions they are used to treat.

> Please please do not use these. If you have them keep them for your pets only

What is the problem with the tick twister, Adi?  It appears to be an effective way of removing ticks without squeezing the body, since the V-slot can be inserted cleanly between the skin and the tick's body. You say that it hasn't been medically trialled, but have tweezers been medically trialled as being suitable for removing ticks without encouraging infection?
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: captain paranoia on July 01, 2013, 06:28:55 PM
BTW, you said this earlier:

"On the site posted [BADA-UK , I assume] I could not find any reference to any medical professional or body, that rings alarm bells for me."

I note that the charity President is Dr James Logan.  I'm assuming that this is the same Dr James Logan who is with the Department of Disease Control at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine:

http://www.lshtm.ac.uk/itd/dcd/ (http://www.lshtm.ac.uk/itd/dcd/)
http://www.lshtm.ac.uk/aboutus/people/logan.james (http://www.lshtm.ac.uk/aboutus/people/logan.james)
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: Callum on July 01, 2013, 06:31:48 PM
Ah ha Adi!

I know nothing about Rights of Way, having long had a healthy disregard for straying from them, frequently ;) However, I do know about tick removers and humans, because anything that we intend to use with the kids has to have been checked and then rechecked.

We contacted H3D in Souys la Combe, France to check if their Otom.com brand was suitable for use on humans and they sent us a Certificate of Approval (2009) from the French Heath Product safety agency (AFSSaPS).
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: adi on July 01, 2013, 07:20:47 PM
> Please please do not use these. If you have them keep them for your pets only

What is the problem with the tick twister, Adi?  It appears to be an effective way of removing ticks without squeezing the body, since the V-slot can be inserted cleanly between the skin and the tick's body. You say that it hasn't been medically trialled, but have tweezers been medically trialled as being suitable for removing ticks without encouraging infection?

They have not been tested and proved safe by medical trial.

Yes they remove ticks, very well in fact but whether the tick rejects any stomach contents into you whilst you are removing it is unknown. It is this contents that is rejected that increases your risk. I don't have the time nor than the desire to do my own evidence search however I can point you to the BMJ article on the subject. They concluded with
Quote
"CLINICAL BOTTOM LINE
Current evidence suggests that a straight slow method is best for removal without leaving the mouthparts.

Report by Stewart Teece,Clinical Research Fellow 
 Search checked by Ian Crawford, Clinical Research Fellow"

Because this is considered best practices at best that is all I can advise.   

I meant to add the link

http://emj.bmj.com/content/19/4/323.full (http://emj.bmj.com/content/19/4/323.full)

If you read the comments you will see it is a very provocative subject.  I can only advice on best practice and those tools and twisting is not best practice.
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: adi on July 01, 2013, 07:27:05 PM
We contacted H3D in Souys la Combe, France to check if their Otom.com brand was suitable for use on humans and they sent us a Certificate of Approval (2009) from the French Heath Product safety agency (AFSSaPS).

Hmmm interesting I would like to know what the criteria to meet the standards of the Certificate of Approval. And at what level that approval meets WHO rules for that sort of thing. I suspect the french have approved it as a medical instrument which would not necessarily mean it is the safest to use.   
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: adi on July 01, 2013, 07:33:37 PM
Callum to support my thoughts on your post I notice that AFSSaPS has been replaced by the National Agency for the Safety of Medicines and Health Products (MSNA), to replace its current regulatory agency, Afssaps.

Safety of Medicines and Health Products suggest they approve products are safe (as in are non allergic, don't cut, don't cause a hazard to health) not necessarily if they are approved as the best practice for tick removal.

Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: Callum on July 01, 2013, 09:11:11 PM
French healthcare is pretty good Adi, according to WHO life expectancy is better there than in the UK, maybe the red wine, but I will run with it :)
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: adi on July 01, 2013, 10:24:14 PM
Oh I know their heath care is good.

As I kid growing up on Exmoor I always had ticks on me, I used to give them names until I ran out of names! Tick removal is one of the most common questions I have been asked and I want to make a video on the subject but I have not picked up a tick in years and if was you can bet it will be in a place where one would not wish to film. I might see if I can get some medical test specimens. 
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: captain paranoia on July 02, 2013, 07:01:14 PM
Thanks Adi.

I note that the BMJ article is a meta study from 2002, finding just two useful articles, both fairly old, and neither looking at the infection rates resulting from removal methods; tricky, I know.  As you say, very contentious.  The twisting action certainly worried me, wondering whether the mouth parts were robust enough to survive twisting without being torn off.

The tick twister can be used in simple pull mode, too, and I like it because it does seem to hold the tick firmly without squishing, which is quite difficult to do without care with tweezers.  As I asked earlier; has there ever been a clinical study on the infection rate from using tweezers?  Again, tricky to perform.

My gut feeling (excuse the pun) is that avoiding squashing the tick seems a very sensible thing to do, and, for me, the twister (even if not twisted...) seems preferable to tweezers.  Those who are more experienced at using tweezers might feel differently.
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: captain paranoia on July 03, 2013, 06:55:41 PM
I remembered the other Lyme disease website I'd seen:

http://www.lymediseaseaction.org.uk/ (http://www.lymediseaseaction.org.uk/)

That has a fairly long list of papers, and suggestions for how to research yourself.

It has discussions about the two different treatment 'camps', and the difficulties with diagnosis and treatment.
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: Lyle Brotherton on July 04, 2013, 04:58:16 PM
I am in the Otom camp, simply because they are frankly the only tool I have ever  used and they are so easy to use. Prior to this, it was trying to pick the ticks off - uninformed people are the most dangerous!

When we next meet up Adi and if Cals about, maybe you could teach us how to use the Iris forceps?
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: adi on July 05, 2013, 02:43:23 PM
Not  a problem. When I get a chance I will go out and try to get a tick and video the removal.
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: Callum on July 09, 2013, 09:03:53 AM
Thx Adi, let's get it arranged whilst we are all still young enough to go out onto the hill ;)
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: boogyman on July 09, 2013, 07:47:11 PM
Speaking of ticks... Sunday evening Ines (my wife) had to remove one that was already "well embedded" into her skin. A bit of a mystery where she got it. Anyway, we did what we usually do: indicate it clearly on the kitchen-calendar (date, who, location of the bite).
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: Batesy on July 09, 2013, 09:30:55 PM
This link just got shared by one of my FB friends.
Not sure it adds much to the debate in this thread but it shows similar topics are being discussed elsewhere...
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/news/item.php?id=68192
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: Callum on August 16, 2013, 12:13:00 PM
See that this months Trail Magazine is advocating the plastic tick removers, whatever the debate, general awareness and removing them is the best option.
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: Pete McK on April 19, 2014, 08:20:52 AM
I found this really good downloadable presentation

"This short slide presentation gives clear and easy-to-understand information and advice about TBE in Europe and has been reviewed and approved by a leading travel health specialist.

It highlights activities and locations that put people at greater risk of TBE, shows how the disease is contracted, explains the serious symptoms that can arise and what to do to protect against TBE."

http://www.tickalert.org/share.html
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: Oakleaf on April 19, 2014, 10:29:55 AM
Yet again interesting thread I hadn't seen before.

Aside from clients, I suspect  that tick bites/ Lymes is one of the biggest hazards for professional stalkers.  Just from personal experience, I know far more stalkers who have contracted the disease than have had near death events with clients - and they can land some corkers on you.

I fully take on board Adi's points regards verification/ research.  My own approach is based on likely far shallower fact finding than he advocates, so should be read as such.

Having moved from Cannock ( an early hotspot ) to Scotland and taking up spending a great deal of time laying in and crawling through vegetation, I do get regular tick bites.  Starting out from nil knowledge base, I'll confess to plucking them out - then often having to pick out the remaining bits and 'progressing' to giving them a squirt of DEET.  I cringe now at the thought!

I have met a number of BADA members - they often have a table in the Scottish Gamekeepers Association tent at various Country Fairs. We carry their awareness leaflets and hand them out on courses and on our stand at such events.  To be honest ( and again taking Adi's point fully ) I never thought to closely scrutinise the medical thoroughness of their stance.  That aside, awareness alone is a hugely important issue.  Knowledge amongst GPs is improving and I know it is one of the key areas BADA work on.  Typically I can't find the source to reference here - it was direct from BADA or from them via the SGA - advising that if visiting the GP with any symptoms/ such issues, we should emphasise that we were professional stalkers and had received a tick bite - with dates etc. and push the issue of potential Lymes infection.

BADA promote the Otom and that's what I use.  The basis for my choosing it was partly the BADA recommendation, but also from ( as confessed limited) own research.  The mouth parts of the tick have fine barbs on them - helping secure the tick in the skin.  The recommended technique of rotating the tick out was suggested as one of the best ways to help these barbs 'retract' allowing full extraction of the tick with less risk of regurgitation. That just made sense to me.

Getting many tick bites a year, I have not had any issues using the tool and its fairly goof proof for clients etc - we always advise a thorough check before turning in for the night and our service doesn't extend to tucking .

Locally there have still been instances of medical staff - usually at nursing level - advising smearing with vaseline or using one of the patch type removal products.  So as noted, remains contentious in terms of best practise advice.

In general,  many people tend to be a bit lax in terms of antiseptic use/ wound care.  I use either Savlon - and quite like their dry spray, which is great on pigs ( but that's a WHOLE  different story  :) )  but most often carry several Tisept sachets - which run about 20-40p each cost wise.  Tisept has proven very effective generally - again anecdotal on my part only. 

One of the most common infection events is if the stalker or client break their skin whilst gralloching a male deer during the rut, with Red Stags in Sept-Oct being the worst.  For some reason, the infection risk seems much higher and the reactions more severe.  I do not know the full reason why.  Possibly it is to do with blood chemistry and the testosterone or other hormonal levels in their blood.  It may also link to their activity - peat wallowing in urine rich muck etc.  But then Roe Bucks do not do that but still show ( though not as bad as Red ) increased likelihood of infection.

Having watched the 'red line of death' progress up the arm ( during the course of breakfast! )of a gung ho colleague stalker who had nicked his finger gralloching a stag the day before, I tend to douse with tisept at the slightest provocation  ;D

On the Bushcraft side,  pine resin - particularly the copious product from blisters on the Noble Fir  seem highly antiseptic and do a great job protecting cuts.

But in short, treat any bite like a skin break wound and clean it. 

Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: captain paranoia on April 19, 2014, 10:56:46 PM
The thing to note about the TickAlert website is that it is an 'infomercial' website, owned and run by Baxter Healthcare, makers of a TBE vaccine.
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: Oakleaf on April 20, 2014, 09:13:27 AM
Somewhat in the vein Capt P writes, I meant to add that some of the larger sporting retailers have been selling a self test kit.

Strictly not self test I suppose - you retain the removed tick and test it.  Not looked further into it as we have switched on GPs and hospital up here that do take Lymes seriously and are on the look out for it.  No matter the state of the NHS, I'd rather rely on them!  :)

From reading I believe that the risk of transmission  is extremely small during the first 24 hours and despite having a 'large surface area'  :-\  I'm used to picking up all sorts of travelling companions from crawling about so much and check daily in any event.

Even the barbers up here are used to casually picking out various creepy crawlies from stalkers hair.

Interestingly ticks seem to favour certain people.  It is believed that ticks are attracted to light colours and initially thought that was it. But most clients etc are dressed toward the 'drab' spectrum.  At the risk of exaggeration; I have had two clients that were positively the Pied Piper of ticks.  Laying up you could see ticks gravitate toward them - think mini version of the Velocirapters in the long grass scene from Jurassic Park.  These guys are great to drag along as a sacrificial anode - I got zero attachments whilst they acquired ticks into the teens  8)

I suppose Capt P's point is an extention of the PLB v SPOT debate - institution v commercial support/ outlook.

And of course, midge season approaches too!
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: boogyman on April 21, 2014, 09:52:26 AM
Interestingly ticks seem to favour certain people.

I can certainly confirm that statement -- when I hike with my wife, she seems to attract all the ticks thereby "protecting" me. And that happens not just once, it happens every time.
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: Lyle Brotherton on April 21, 2014, 05:48:01 PM
Yes, there is definitely something in these little blighters which attracts them to certain individuals. A similar story is that open camping (just your sleeping bag) a few years back with John, up near Aberfeldy, that evening he got literally dozens of ticks, from just walking around the area we had marked out to camp, and I got none.
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: Oakleaf on April 25, 2014, 07:53:19 AM
Only just seen the statement on the BADA website here - http://www.bada-uk.org/

The registered charity is in the process of closing.  The website will continue until Dec 2015 it is hoped.

Appears to be a case that income was insufficient to keep going.
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: Yorric on April 25, 2014, 10:14:10 AM
As prevention is better than cure I've been thinking of trying some of the Rovince range of clothing - It's quite expensive but probably well worth it compared to the cost of multiple visits to the quack.
Has anyone tried this Rovince clothing, & how effective does it prove to be - especially over time & multiple cleaning cycles?

On a similar subject - that of mozzie & midges - Last year I got some Nikwax Skito-Stop spray & treated my clothes with it. I was wondering if it helps against ticks too??? I still have a bottle & will be applying it to the trousers again this spring - i.e. NOW! as we are starting to get reports of massive infestations not far from here in the Highlands.
I just looked for the Skito-Stop on Google & it appears that it may have been discontinued ?????  The only product they (Nikwax) show is one with a built in sun screen & not the stuff for clothing & tents.  :-\

Ian
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: Lyle Brotherton on April 25, 2014, 10:45:55 AM
Personally I always use the yellow oil containing DEET (N,N-Diethyl-meta-toluamide) and it is bullet-proof! It has protected me everywhere from the Amazonian Rainforest to the Scottish southern Uplands.

It comes in for a lot of stick, unfairly I believe, probably because it was developed years ago by the US Military. Plus, it is as cheap as chips, so manufacturers of newer replants and ‘conspiracy netnurds’ promote scare stories. Used correctly, it protects against the vast majority of biting insects, including ticks, mosquitos and fleas.

After years of using it and speaking with experts in the field, these are my recommendations for the correct application of DEET Products
(as always, a matter of common sense).

Use a concentration with 30% DEET in the UK
Use a concentration with 50% DEET in tropical/rainforest environments
Do not use under clothing, as it can act as a skin irritant
Never be used on damaged/broken skin
DEET can dissolve some plastics, such as rayon and spandex, so it should be applied to a small test area of a garment 24hrs before you intend to apply it the rest of the garment
When the DEET is no longer needled on your garments, wash them


PS Don’t buy it from the likes of eBay, because it may not be what it says on the label! Personally, if not issued with it, I buy mine from Boots the Chemist
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: Oakleaf on April 25, 2014, 12:14:33 PM
Yorric - your 'new best mate' Dave has a set of Rovince, it would be worth chatting with him.  He never looked overly comfortable in the gear - but I'm not about to pot- kettle- black  any comments on body shape!  ;)  I think it did as advertised, but was such a tight weave that he over heated in it.

DEET - like tick attraction, I suspect there is an element of body chemistry at work in these things.  Quite aside from the slightly unnerving situation of being in the company of big burly guys all sweetly smelling of Avon Skin So Soft  ( which many swear by ),  it never worked for me - I just ended up slightly oily, covered in thousands of stuck midges - all of whom's dying wish was to bite me.

Similar lack of success with Smidge etc - virtually anything bearing the words friendly, sensitive skin, organic or natural just never works on me. But I know others love them.

The only certain substance for me is 50% or better DEET.  Yes every professional stalker's steering wheel is rotting, it makes your lips go numb and in seriousness it does require sensible use. But having witnessed forest workers douse themselves in red diesel to get respite from the midge menace, I'll trade some inconvenience for respite.

I have cut down on amounts by utilising a midge jacket during the summer.  Strangely I have very sensitive skin, but have not had any bad reaction to DEET - despite the clear memory of handing in an AR-18 many years ago with my finger impressions DEET etched into the grip and handguard!
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: Lyle Brotherton on April 25, 2014, 12:53:48 PM
Oakleaf, I have heard the skin reaction hypothesis before, which may be correct however, Brad, who I was on tour with, was using the then US Tropical Issue 90% DEET concentrate. Most research deems the 30% safe and the 50% to be used cautiously, so 90% is off the Richter Scale in my book.

I got him to try the 50% I was using and remember observing that he was not applying as much as I did. I pour a quantity of the DEET concentrate into the cupped palm of my hand, then rub onto the exposed areas of my body, I don’t spray it.

It’s also worth noting that it should not be applied simultaneously with sun screen since DEET has been shown to reduce the efficacy of both when used together. Better to apply the sunscreen an hour before you apply the DEET.

Might be worth trying when your next out.
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: captain paranoia on April 25, 2014, 03:25:16 PM
British Army issue some 3M combined sunblock/DEET lotion in (unsurprisingly) a green squeezy tube.
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: Lyle Brotherton on April 26, 2014, 09:21:19 AM
From 3M’s own website (http://solutions.3m.com.hk/wps/portal/3M/en_HK/Ultrathon_Home/Main/FAQ/#target11)

“Sunscreens and insect repellents may be used together on exposed skin. However, there is some evidence showing that DEET can reduce the efficacy of sunscreens when applied to the same area. One study showed as much as 33% decrease in sun protection (SPF) when a 33% DEET lotion was simultaneously applied. Therefore, when applying a sunscreen and DEET repellent, user should reapply the sunscreen more frequently to prevent sunburns.”

Bottom-line, don’t apply these products together.
Title: Re: Lyme disease
Post by: Pete McK on April 30, 2014, 10:45:33 AM
Because of Health & Safety and all that, when we take the pupils on their field trips we cannot supply any insect repellents for them, and most have forgotton that it was on their prep-list anyway. Instead, we avoid walking through high ferns and bracken and make sure the kids are wearing long trousers, preferably stuffed into their socks. So far, in more than a dozen field trips, we have only had a handful of kids who have picked up any ticks and these tended to be the usual suspects who ignored our instruction ;)

The item of kit we do carry and use when they get as tick is the O'Tom Tick Remover and it works every time.