Author Topic: Don't rely on GNSS location based apps  (Read 8921 times)

adi

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Don't rely on GNSS location based apps
« on: August 21, 2012, 12:31:46 AM »
I have noticed some GNSS apps I have use on the iPhone are not alway very accurate. I think Lyle has mentioned that iPhone has the same GNSS chip set as standard GPS units but I personally think mobiles are compromise of many different technologies so does not excel at any of its tasks.

http://www.nsnews.com/North+Shore+rescues+highlight+flaws+system/6301176/story.html
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

Lyle Brotherton

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Re: Don't rely on GNSS location based apps
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2012, 09:18:19 AM »
Apple, along with other smart phone manufacturers, continues to pioneer position technology, and is far ahead of the conventional satnav manufacturers, such as Garmin and Satmap.

The iPhone 4s has actually has a chipset that receives both GPS & GLONESS satellite signals, plus it augments it location from other data sources (I made another posting about this somewhere on this site –v will search for it), whereas currently only the new eTrex series from Garmin has the dual GNSS constellation capability, and none of the other products used other location based services, such as A-GPS, unlike the smartphones.

Using smartphones to navigate in the countryside has come to the fore again with Cairngorm Mountain Rescue Team, amongst others, having to rescue people who had relied only on smartphones to navigate with. Four on the weekend of 11/12 of August alone - which culminated in a group of 14 hill walkers being walked down from the summit of Ben Macdui – Britain’s second highest mountain!

Garmin tried to embrace platform diversity with the 3G GPS Garmiphone, an Android smartphone and Garmin GPS navigation device, yet, as large a corporation as they are they cannot compete with industry giants, such as Apple.

I personally believe that the next paradigm shift in location based technology will come not from the conventional satnav manufacturers but instead, from the manufacturers of smartphones.
“Opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance” - Plato

Lost Soul

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Re: Don't rely on GNSS location based apps
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2012, 10:35:01 AM »
Be that as it may.  But smart phones have very very poor battery life, particularly when used with GPS apps.  They normally die after a couple of hours vs many hours of life for a dedicated GPS gadget.  So until smart phone manufactures can give a battery life equivelant to stand alone GPS gadgets then they are going continue to be a hazard rather than a help when out on the hill.

Speedbird

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Re: Don't rely on GNSS location based apps
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2012, 10:46:39 AM »
Not only that but often the smartphone screens are not as good, the phones are not waterproof and they will not take kindly to a drop on some rocks. Apple is all about style and looks so to get to waterproof and rugged will mean making them ugly, and Apples customers will probably not like that! I am happy to have my phones and GPS as separate devices just in case of failure and of course always carry one of those paper thingies and the circular thing with a point thing in it as a back up somewhere in the darkest reach of my rucksack.
Regards
John

adi

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Re: Don't rely on GNSS location based apps
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2012, 11:25:22 AM »
I agree with you Lyle, That Mobile phone companies will take the lead in navigation eventually. I just wonder how well some of these apps are actually written. I am sometimes amazed by how accessible GNSS navigation is on my phone and how it has become part of my life. I am constantly discovering new things about my local environment I did not previously know. I often use it to navigate around urban environments. I know I can go to any city and I have the means to navigate and track my route or more importantly get back to the car.

But as said before and important to remember is technology has its cons.   
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

Callum

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Re: Don't rely on GNSS location based apps
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2012, 01:09:23 PM »
Using smartphones to navigate in the countryside has come to the fore again with Cairngorm Mountain Rescue Team, amongst others, having to rescue people who had relied only on smartphones to navigate with. Four on the weekend of 11/12 of August alone - which culminated in a group of 14 hill walkers being walked down from the summit of Ben Macdui – Britain’s second highest mountain!

This posting of Lyle's today says it all Adi, the challenge we face, as educators, is to help people understand, exactly as you say, that technology does fail.

I had resisted the iphone, even though everyone in my entire family possesses one. However, having now used one for the last 8 months I too continue to be amazed with its functionality and accuracy in locating my position in urban areas.

The was a feature about Apple being the largest corporation in history this morning on the today program, R4, and Googling Apple it appears that their R&D spend is larger than Garmin’s entire sales, so I agree, it is the smartphone manufacturers who will be at the forefront of this technology - if they are not already!

captain paranoia

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Re: Don't rely on GNSS location based apps
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2012, 05:23:13 PM »
> That Mobile phone companies will take the lead in navigation eventually.

Not only because of the numbers of units sold, and the R&D spend, but because of the profusion of revenue-earning location-based services (essentially, advertising), such as guiding you to restaurants, shops, coupled in to social networking sites/personal preference data miners, etc...

Urban micronavigation is the thing...

If only we could tack on decent battery life and a rugged platform...

Walking Beaver

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Re: Don't rely on GNSS location based apps
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2012, 05:57:00 PM »
About that rugged platform, I use for about three years an Otterbox for my iPhone 3GS and still very satisfied about it.

WB


Lyle Brotherton

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Re: Don't rely on GNSS location based apps
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2012, 09:22:50 AM »
I have posted about the first combined smartphone, satnav & walkie talkie, built for outdoor use here:
http://micronavigation.com/forum/index.php?topic=311.0
“Opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance” - Plato

Pete McK

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Re: Don't rely on GNSS location based apps
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2012, 03:52:34 PM »
Good to know we were ahead of the news ;)

Lost Soul

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Re: Don't rely on GNSS location based apps
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2012, 01:42:15 PM »
Okay, so we are all responsible navigators and wouldn’t dream of using a smart phone is a primary means of navigation.  Particularly as smart phones are essentially fashion accessories of questionable reliability and utility.  And yes I confess to having one with GPS apps. All of which rely on an Internet connection (good mobile phone signal or wi-fi) in the in order to download maps in real time to tell me where I am – hence largely useless unless I am in an urban environment or my living room.  However, I do have one app which I would consider to be of value to the responsible navigator out on the hill.

And that is an app called GPS to Grid.  (I have a Windows Mobile 7 device, so am not sure if this app is available for other platforms.)  This app relies solely on a GPS signal and it very quickly gives you the 8 figure map reference of your location.  Very handy, assuming the GPS signals are reliable and have not been interfered with of course.  Actually it does have a real-time OS mapping function as well but as I just said it needs an Internet connection to access the maps.

On a related matter here in West Sussex there is a company called Pied-A-Terre Adventures who run short navigation course for those who want a safe experience on the hill.   They were recently interviewed in our local paper and stated that they were becoming increasingly concerned by the number of people coming to grief when using smart phones as their sole means of navigation.  So without further ado come to us and we will teach you how to do it properly.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 03:04:29 PM by Lost Soul »

adi

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Re: Don't rely on GNSS location based apps
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2012, 02:02:48 PM »
The fact is I use my mobile at least 3 times a week to either navigate, find a geographic location or to map my progress over a given ground.

I was talking to my brother yesterday who has just returned from visiting my mother in Spain and he was telling me how using his phone gave him confidence to expand on his walks from the house,  on one occasion on a 25 mile walk. Where as in the past we just would not wonder that far from the house.

He was not using his phone as a self centered navigation device but as a tool to expand his Home Centered understanding of the environment. By using GPS enabled phone to do this is a lot safer and more natural (we home center our environment from birth and when we go some where new we start to home center the new environment) if the batteries fail he just needs to turn around and follow his route until he is familiar with his surroundings apposed to trying to navigate over unfamiliar ground to his start point. 

Mobiles are great tools for home centered navigation but can get us in to a lot of trouble if used for self centered navigation. Maybe this fact needs to be taught to people or at least communicated by the people that give the warnings about using their phone. Warnings does nothing, if you have a tool in your pocket you will use it. Give them the understanding of how to best use the tool in their pocket the more effective they will use that tool.
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

automan

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Re: Don't rely on GNSS location based apps
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2012, 11:58:28 AM »
hi guys and gals
 only new on here,i use an i phone 4 with view ranger 1:50,000 osi mapping.i use it to back up map and compass only,i bought an auxillary battery which doubles as a cover and can now get 24 hrs using viewranger app only,i cant really complain about the i phone as it has never let me down(especially on night navs) my latest purchase is a sat map active 10 so if its half as good as the i phone ill be right pleased
                                             cheers folks :D

Lost Soul

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Re: Don't rely on GNSS location based apps
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2012, 02:30:48 PM »
Welcome.  Glad to hear you use your smart phone as a backup to map and compass.  The Sat Map Active 10 is built for the purpose.  One thing it will do is bounce (or should do) when you drop it which a smart phone is highly unlikely to do.  One of the major problems with current smart phone is their durability etc when out of doors. 

Lyle has hopes for the future on this specific shortcoming.  See his threads.  If you care to enter a search item on this forum you will find a positive thread about the Sat Map Active 10.  I have one and am very impressed. As it is built for the purpose it is more convenient to use than my smart phones mapping apps which all relay on a mobile phone signal to stream the relevant map segments.
 
And are thus only really up to the job in an urban environment where fast 3G data signals are available.  This is a major problem with current Windows Mobile 7.x phones and their mapping apps.  The old WM 6 allowed you to install say Memory Map for PDA and download and store maps directly on the gadget.  So all that was required to get useful functionality anywhere any place was a GPS signal and charged battery.  Change at times equals deterioration.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 05:22:16 PM by Lost Soul »