Author Topic: Lyme disease  (Read 9166 times)

Callum

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Re: Lyme disease
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2013, 06:31:48 PM »
Ah ha Adi!

I know nothing about Rights of Way, having long had a healthy disregard for straying from them, frequently ;) However, I do know about tick removers and humans, because anything that we intend to use with the kids has to have been checked and then rechecked.

We contacted H3D in Souys la Combe, France to check if their Otom.com brand was suitable for use on humans and they sent us a Certificate of Approval (2009) from the French Heath Product safety agency (AFSSaPS).

adi

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Re: Lyme disease
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2013, 07:20:47 PM »
> Please please do not use these. If you have them keep them for your pets only

What is the problem with the tick twister, Adi?  It appears to be an effective way of removing ticks without squeezing the body, since the V-slot can be inserted cleanly between the skin and the tick's body. You say that it hasn't been medically trialled, but have tweezers been medically trialled as being suitable for removing ticks without encouraging infection?

They have not been tested and proved safe by medical trial.

Yes they remove ticks, very well in fact but whether the tick rejects any stomach contents into you whilst you are removing it is unknown. It is this contents that is rejected that increases your risk. I don't have the time nor than the desire to do my own evidence search however I can point you to the BMJ article on the subject. They concluded with
Quote
"CLINICAL BOTTOM LINE
Current evidence suggests that a straight slow method is best for removal without leaving the mouthparts.

Report by Stewart Teece,Clinical Research Fellow 
 Search checked by Ian Crawford, Clinical Research Fellow"

Because this is considered best practices at best that is all I can advise.   

I meant to add the link

http://emj.bmj.com/content/19/4/323.full

If you read the comments you will see it is a very provocative subject.  I can only advice on best practice and those tools and twisting is not best practice.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 08:04:57 PM by adi »
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

adi

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Re: Lyme disease
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2013, 07:27:05 PM »
We contacted H3D in Souys la Combe, France to check if their Otom.com brand was suitable for use on humans and they sent us a Certificate of Approval (2009) from the French Heath Product safety agency (AFSSaPS).

Hmmm interesting I would like to know what the criteria to meet the standards of the Certificate of Approval. And at what level that approval meets WHO rules for that sort of thing. I suspect the french have approved it as a medical instrument which would not necessarily mean it is the safest to use.   
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

adi

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Re: Lyme disease
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2013, 07:33:37 PM »
Callum to support my thoughts on your post I notice that AFSSaPS has been replaced by the National Agency for the Safety of Medicines and Health Products (MSNA), to replace its current regulatory agency, Afssaps.

Safety of Medicines and Health Products suggest they approve products are safe (as in are non allergic, don't cut, don't cause a hazard to health) not necessarily if they are approved as the best practice for tick removal.

« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 08:18:44 PM by adi »
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

Callum

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Re: Lyme disease
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2013, 09:11:11 PM »
French healthcare is pretty good Adi, according to WHO life expectancy is better there than in the UK, maybe the red wine, but I will run with it :)

adi

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Re: Lyme disease
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2013, 10:24:14 PM »
Oh I know their heath care is good.

As I kid growing up on Exmoor I always had ticks on me, I used to give them names until I ran out of names! Tick removal is one of the most common questions I have been asked and I want to make a video on the subject but I have not picked up a tick in years and if was you can bet it will be in a place where one would not wish to film. I might see if I can get some medical test specimens. 
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 01:19:28 AM by adi »
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

captain paranoia

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Re: Lyme disease
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2013, 07:01:14 PM »
Thanks Adi.

I note that the BMJ article is a meta study from 2002, finding just two useful articles, both fairly old, and neither looking at the infection rates resulting from removal methods; tricky, I know.  As you say, very contentious.  The twisting action certainly worried me, wondering whether the mouth parts were robust enough to survive twisting without being torn off.

The tick twister can be used in simple pull mode, too, and I like it because it does seem to hold the tick firmly without squishing, which is quite difficult to do without care with tweezers.  As I asked earlier; has there ever been a clinical study on the infection rate from using tweezers?  Again, tricky to perform.

My gut feeling (excuse the pun) is that avoiding squashing the tick seems a very sensible thing to do, and, for me, the twister (even if not twisted...) seems preferable to tweezers.  Those who are more experienced at using tweezers might feel differently.

captain paranoia

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Re: Lyme disease
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2013, 06:55:41 PM »
I remembered the other Lyme disease website I'd seen:

http://www.lymediseaseaction.org.uk/

That has a fairly long list of papers, and suggestions for how to research yourself.

It has discussions about the two different treatment 'camps', and the difficulties with diagnosis and treatment.

Lyle Brotherton

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Re: Lyme disease
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2013, 04:58:16 PM »
I am in the Otom camp, simply because they are frankly the only tool I have ever  used and they are so easy to use. Prior to this, it was trying to pick the ticks off - uninformed people are the most dangerous!

When we next meet up Adi and if Cals about, maybe you could teach us how to use the Iris forceps?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 05:24:24 PM by Lyle Brotherton »
“Opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance” - Plato

adi

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Re: Lyme disease
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2013, 02:43:23 PM »
Not  a problem. When I get a chance I will go out and try to get a tick and video the removal.
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

Callum

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Re: Lyme disease
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2013, 09:03:53 AM »
Thx Adi, let's get it arranged whilst we are all still young enough to go out onto the hill ;)

boogyman

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Re: Lyme disease
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2013, 07:47:11 PM »
Speaking of ticks... Sunday evening Ines (my wife) had to remove one that was already "well embedded" into her skin. A bit of a mystery where she got it. Anyway, we did what we usually do: indicate it clearly on the kitchen-calendar (date, who, location of the bite).

Batesy

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Re: Lyme disease
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2013, 09:30:55 PM »
This link just got shared by one of my FB friends.
Not sure it adds much to the debate in this thread but it shows similar topics are being discussed elsewhere...
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/news/item.php?id=68192

Callum

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Re: Lyme disease
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2013, 12:13:00 PM »
See that this months Trail Magazine is advocating the plastic tick removers, whatever the debate, general awareness and removing them is the best option.

Pete McK

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Re: Lyme disease
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2014, 08:20:52 AM »
I found this really good downloadable presentation

"This short slide presentation gives clear and easy-to-understand information and advice about TBE in Europe and has been reviewed and approved by a leading travel health specialist.

It highlights activities and locations that put people at greater risk of TBE, shows how the disease is contracted, explains the serious symptoms that can arise and what to do to protect against TBE."

http://www.tickalert.org/share.html