Author Topic: Ordnance Survey map conventions  (Read 12174 times)

Lyle Brotherton

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Re: Ordnance Survey map conventions
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2011, 01:28:59 PM »
I might be able to throw some light upon this matter.

Last year, whilst liaising with the top management from Ordnance Survey regarding OMSA, I enquired as to how they could both ascertain and prove copyright. I was informed that there are "fingerprints" in all of their maps.

These “fingerprints” were used in the legal case against the AA, back in 2001, to prove both of the aforementioned. Ordnance Survey won their case and were awarded substantial damages by the High Court. For obvious reasons, they will not divulge what these “fingerprints” are.

Interestingly, researching maps, I discovered that the cartographers sometimes hid their names into contour lines (P36 UNM)and I was fortunate enough to be able to correspond with a retired OS cartographer who confirmed this - plus a dolphin shaped small mass of water, that does not exist and “occasional extra farm building” – possibly these constitute some of these “fingerprints”?
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Hugh Westacott

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Re: Ordnance Survey map conventions
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2011, 01:35:47 PM »
Lyle

Thank you for this clarification. It seems that I've been misinformed.

Hugh

Lyle Brotherton

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Re: Ordnance Survey map conventions
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2011, 01:56:36 PM »
Possibly not Hugh, for the reason that these are not deliberate mistakes endorsed by OS, perhaps just serendipity?
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Callum

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Re: Ordnance Survey map conventions
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2011, 02:55:54 PM »
Spot on Lyle.

Couple of years back we had some university students working with us at the centre during their summer holidays. One of them had a real passion for the outdoors, mapping and the like and had studied the Ordnance Survey vs Automobile Association case for her law thesis, she used exactly the same terminology, fingerprints, when she told us about it and went on to say in addition to imaginary farm buildings,

Stream tributaries
Tiny kinks in rivers
Exaggerated curves in roads
Extra and missing apostrophes.

And she described the fingerprints not as faults or errors, but subtle and secret ways of detecting plagiarism, rather like watermarks.

Hugh Westacott

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Re: Ordnance Survey map conventions
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2011, 04:00:10 PM »
I guess it's a matte of semantics. The fingerprints are not errors in the accepted sense of the word especially since there is some simplification of detail on both Landrangers and Explorers. I'm a bit bothered by the possibility of phantom farm buildings appearing but if it was an extra barn among a cluster of farm buildings, I suppose it would not matter. Another possibility would be assigning a name to an anonymous crag or wood.

The AA case concerned, I think, the 1:250,000 map where a great deal of simplification takes place and which so sensible person would dream of using for micro-navigation. (Come to think of it, when I first walked the Pennine Way in the early 70s, on the final and hideously boggy section between Byrness and Kirk Yetholm, I encountered two men wearing wooden clogs and relying on an Esso road map for navigation.)

I wonder if fingerprints appear on all maps or only those series used by the general public. In the absence of firm evidence, I find it hard to be believe that there are fingerprints on the 1:10,000 and 1:2,500 series.

When I first read Lyle's book, I was amused to read the names incorporated into the symbol for cliffs on page 36. These are not errors because the cliff symbol is a stylized representation but it's nice to know that OS staff are human and have a sense of humour!

Hugh




adi

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Re: Ordnance Survey map conventions
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2011, 04:24:00 PM »
All of the mapping companies use fingerprints. Nicholson add roads to their street atlas.
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

sniperkona

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Re: Ordnance Survey map conventions
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2011, 08:46:15 PM »
Lyle

This is excellent news and I'm glad that you have been able to prise open the protective shell of the OS. To be fair, there was a time, many, many years ago when the arrogance of the organization was breathtaking and would refuse to countenance even the possibility that their maps could contain errors made either by surveyors or the draughtsmen preparing the maps for publication. That has changed and I find the staff helpful and willing to answer queries, and appreciative when I point out errors.

The lady with whom I raised the question of publishing conventions seemed concerned about commercial confidentiality and I had some difficulty in convincing her that I did not expect these to be revealed. In the end, it all came to nothing because she was too busy on other work to do the necessary research. I guess that you have approached the right person!

Hugh


did some looking about and found this as a answer as to why we dont know he conventions yet.
Rules and regulations governing the creation of Ordnance Survey maps
I wonder if you could tell me where I may find the rules and regulations governing the creation of Ordnance Survey maps, in particular the Landranger 1:50 000.

I am looking for such things as the minimum size of a water feature in order for it to be indicated on an Ordnance Survey map, rules about forestry areas etc.

Thank you for your email dated 22 April 2009, I can confirm that Ordnance Survey does hold this information, however I regret to inform you that your request falls within the Commercial interests exemption under section 43 (1) of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA). We believe this exemption applies because we consider to specifications regarding how we make our maps to be trade secrets and to release such information would substantially prejudice our ability to operate within the constraints of our Trading Fund remit, therefore we will not be releasing this information to you.

To the extent that the Public interest is considered (section 17 FOIA), it is our reasonable opinion that in all the circumstances of the case that whilst the public interest in releasing the requested information would meet the requirement that Ordnance Survey as government department is openly accountable regarding our map making activities, in considering the public interest to the private sector in the release of this information, we also consider that there would be significant risk to the Ordnance Survey business model both financially and operationally.  Accepting that there is some risk of prejudice in releasing the requested information, we feel that the public interest is more in favour of withholding the requested information regarding our mapping specification which may severely prejudice Ordnance Surveys’ ability to operate within the commercial geographic information sector.  Therefore to release information relating to technological specifications (effectively our trade secrets) may provide the private sector an insight into map production, undermining our ability to operate effectively within the constraints stated in our Framework Document  and under the Information Fair Trader Scheme as required by us as a government Trading Fund.  Given that Ordnance Survey receives no direct funding from Parliament, we therefore consider that releasing the requested information would be prejudicial to our commercial interest (exemption s 43.1), consequently we will not be releasing this information to you.

Please be aware that we do provide limited information for users of our data and this is available on our website.

Please note that your enquiry has been processed to Freedom of Information guidelines. If you are unhappy with our response, you may raise an appeal to our Appeals Officer at:

Complaints Team

Customer Service Centre

Ordnance Survey

Romsey Road

SOUTHAMPTON

SO16 4GU

Please include the reference number below. The Appeals Officer will ensure that the process has been followed correctly, questioning any decisions taken regarding the original response and recommending disclosure of additional information if appropriate.

Thank you for your enquiry.

Reference number: 70912 04/

Hugh Westacott

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Re: Ordnance Survey map conventions
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2011, 07:15:58 AM »
Sniperkona

Thanks for this!

The reply that you got from the OS is a masterpiece of bureaucratic prose!

We know that some necessary simplification together with the omission of certain features takes place when Explorers and Landrangers are redrawn from the 1:10,000 map. All we are asking for is that the information should be made available.

Some of the information, such as the conventions applied to bodies of water and electectricity transmission lines, can be found in Harley's book Ordnance Survey Maps; a Descriptive Manual, but this was published nearly forty years ago and we know that some of them have been revised. For example, military installations used not to be marked on maps available to the general public, but at least some of them now are. The huge Early Warning System on Fylingdales Moor in the North York Moors, which is visible for miles around, was not depicted on maps until comparatively recently.

This is the kind of information we are seeking and I can't believe that it is in any way commercially sensitive.

Let's hope that Lyle's contacts within the OS will bear fruit.

Hugh

sniperkona

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Re: Ordnance Survey map conventions
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2011, 06:43:21 PM »
it wasnt me though sorry, just found the letter on OS own website questions page.
it was a couple of years old also.
maybe there are changes afoot!

adi

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Re: Ordnance Survey map conventions
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2011, 11:52:07 AM »
I believe that the question was asked wrong to get that response from OS. There is stuff on OS maps that is commercially sensitive and they don't want to publicise but what this thread is about should not be coming under that banner, damn it used to be printed in the key of maps.
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

adi

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Re: Ordnance Survey map conventions
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2011, 12:08:52 PM »
Quote from: Hugh Westacott link=topic=111.msg 574#msg 574 date=1322225116
Adi

Do you have evidence that the OS incorporates deliberate errors into their maps in order to detect infringes of copyright?

I believe that some commercial publishers adopt this technique but the OS has always flatly denied that they deliberately incorporate errors for this purpose. It would seem to be contrary to the OS ethos.

It is a fact that the OS carries out checks on publications containing maps to ensure that there has been no infringement of copyright. In the past I have been asked by the OS to provide proof that I had obtained permission for reproducing maps in some of my footpath guides. This struck me as odd because I always had; perhaps proper records were not kept.

Hugh

Sorry Hugh I missed this post. The only evidence I have is from OS itself. OK they might like to keep it quiet but they have used it in evidence in court so its not the secret.
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

Lyle Brotherton

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Re: Ordnance Survey map conventions
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2012, 10:28:14 AM »
No response at yet from OS contact :( a reminder email sent today ;)
“Opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance” - Plato