Author Topic: Unreasonable expectations  (Read 14082 times)

Hugh Westacott

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Unreasonable expectations
« on: November 16, 2012, 09:40:22 AM »
I have a small business in my retirement leading day walks and walking tours for London-based ex-pats from the United States, Canada and Australia.

One of my regular clients is a ladies' club which for the past fourteen years I've led on monthly 8-10-mile walks for groups of twenty or so. I plan the walks and submit them to the club secretary for approval. The club decided that the November walk should be 5 miles followed by lunch and then for those who wanted a longer walk, a further 5 miles. I submitted a plan that included a pub lunch scheduled for 1315, and this was accepted. Two days before the date of the walk, the club secretary told me that lunch should be at 1230 so that members could return to London to attend a school meeting. I replied that it was impossible to shave 45 minutes off a 5-mile walk and the only solutions were to take an earlier train out of London or forgo the pub lunch and eat sandwiches on the train. This proved not to be acceptable and I was told that all the members were runners and should be able to do it. She suggested that she could save time by instructing everyone not to use the loos at Chesham station (there are none on the trains) and to wait until lunchtime!

The only remedy was to provide convincing evidence so I walked the route and on my return sent this email (slightly edited):

I can average 4 mph over 5 miles in Regent's Park but this speed is impossible to maintain in the countryside.

I averaged of 3,2 mph at top speed from Chesham station to the pub.

A large group can never walk as fast as the leader when he's solo because of the bunching that occurs at stiles and kissing gates; there are 18 on this route. Also, after all the rain we've had there was a lot of mud. I just ploughed through it but the ladies are daintier than me and will spend time trying to avoid mud and puddles especially if some of them will be wearing trainers. Time will also be spent de-layering and, if it rains, putting on waterproofs, and stopping for drinks.

I've had 40 years of experience of leading walks and I know that an average speed of 2 mph is about right for a large group and leaves a comfortable margin of safety.

The average speed is always set by the slowest member of the group. If we walk too fast for just one person then we only have to wait from time to time to allow her to catch up.


This convinced her and the group caught an earlier train. Her instruction not use the loo was ignored by one person (as I knew it would be) and she was followed by 17 others. As a result we left the station 15 minutes after the train had arrived. Nevertheless, we arrived at the pub at 1227.

After the walk I sent the club secretary this email (slightly edited):

I think that yesterday's walk went very well (apart from the mud and the weather!) and I've been pondering on what we can all learn from it in order to make future walks even more enjoyable.

Here are some interesting statistics:
1   When I walked the route solo last Sunday I averaged 3.2 mph or 18 mins 45 secs per mile.
2   I set the same pace for the group but they averaged 2.6 mph or 23 mins per mile.
3   Thus, over the same distance the group took an additional 21 mins to complete the same route.
4   The main cause of the disparity is the number of gates and stiles. Here's just one example. Just after we left Chesham we emerged from a wood to descend a short hill, cross a road with a gate on one side and stile on the far side. There was one more gate before reaching a stile at the second road. I reached the second road with four members of the group. The distance from the wood to the second road is 550 metres, but the gates and stiles had caused the group to spread out so that the last person was 150 metres behind me.

This is what happened on the afternoon walk. 
1   There were seven of us.
2    The distance was almost exactly the same as the short walk. 
3   There were 20 gates and stiles compared with 18 for the short walk.
4   The average sped was 2.3 mph (compared with 2.6 mph for the morning walk).
5   I was asked to slow down a bit.

Here are some of my concerns about leading a large group all of which I believe should be taken into consideration when planning a fast walk, especially when members of the group have a deadline to meet:
1   The risk of 'losing' people. It's very helpful that you act as the sweep, but you are not familiar with the routes so that does not cover all situations. For example, in dense woodland where there is a fork in the path followed by a bend, even those a short distance behind may not be sure which path to take. Also, it's easy to miss a turning over a stile in a hedge if the well-used path that you have been following runs past it. In such circumstances, I have to stop to ensure that everyone has seen the turn (I did this twice yesterday morning).
2   Injury, illness or tiredness due to over-exertion. I can only think of two cases of injury (both twisted ankles) on club walks, but there have been several cases of blistered feet and many more of members who were not fit enough to complete the walk. The usual remedy for the last example was a taxi from the pub to the station.


 I believe that she has got the message and that we are still friends!

Hugh




Jester

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Re: Unreasonable expectations
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2012, 11:59:34 AM »
All good points Hugh, and very well put. There's always going to be a "faff" factor, and this can only increase as the group gets bigger.
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
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Lyle Brotherton

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Re: Unreasonable expectations
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2012, 12:46:15 PM »
Very valid and salient points Hugh.

Something interesting that I recently learned, is that up to 25% of the total energy used in a 6hr walk, is often expended in the first hour – I refer to this as the ‘Rabbit out of the trap syndrome’. I have found that even when working with rescue teams, the initial enthusiasm at the start of the journey needs to be tempered, and a steady pace maintained.
“Opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance” - Plato

captain paranoia

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Re: Unreasonable expectations
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2012, 03:04:49 PM »
> is that up to 25% of the total energy used in a 6hr walk, is often expended in the first hour

If these 6-hour walks are mountain walks, then the first hour is often uphill...

Group faffage is certainly something that needs to be accounted for, in almost all activities.  Even more so if there's no 'official leader', and decisions are made by consensus.  Skiing with a large group can be a nightmare.

Lyle Brotherton

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Re: Unreasonable expectations
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2012, 03:11:09 PM »
CP  - It was work done by the British Army, their remit was that the trip should include the same level of difficulty/excertion for the first two hours, the six hour timeframe was an average. Whether I am training a LSAR/MRT or military unit, I invariably encounter the ‘Rabbit out of the trap syndrome’
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 03:14:34 PM by Lyle Brotherton »
“Opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance” - Plato

captain paranoia

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Re: Unreasonable expectations
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2012, 03:40:21 PM »
I'm aware that I can have 'rabbit' tendencies...  I have been referred to as the 'mountain whippet', and often find myself waiting for more measured people to catch up.  I'm learning to temper them, especially on long Scottish winter days.  Well, the days aren't so long in winter, but it's easy to go mad in deep snow at first, only to regret it when you run out of steam.

Thinking about it a bit, I like to start off lightly dressed, and warm up by exertion, knowing that if I started off with too much clothing, I'd only get too hot, and have to adjust layers soon.  And starting in a group often involves an initial faff as boots get put on, clothing gets changed, poles are found, packs loaded/unloaded blah blah blah, so I guess I can start off a bit cold.  this might encourage me to get a move on, to warm up again.  And it might be that I continue at that warm-up pace a bit too long...

adi

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Re: Unreasonable expectations
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2012, 10:33:32 PM »
Interesting point Lyle, as a cyclist I can say that it takes between 20 mins and an hour to warm up to perform at peak performance. You use more energy whilst warming up to this peak than you do whilst at peak performance for a same period of time. Once you are at peak performance you must stay hydrated or you fall of the peak very quickly.
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

Egg

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Re: Unreasonable expectations
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2012, 11:24:49 AM »
I'm always on the lookout for faffage (great word) and rabbits whenever I take groups out on any terrain.
Whatever you say or do there's always going to be one who does the whole thing, overdressed and too fast at the start, then slow and cold later.
Personally I like to start out cool, even after some stretching, and wearing exactly what I want to have on about 45 to 60 minutes in.
Maybe that's a think too far for some people? But for me it works most times unless there is a big change in conditions.
Everyday's a school day...

Lost Soul

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Re: Unreasonable expectations
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2012, 10:02:11 AM »
Re rabbit syndrome.  Some years ago I attended a guided fortnight of activities in the wilderness areas of Idaho.  Some of which involved legging it across the terrain with a heavy pack.  Now our guides were very knowledgeable and professional.  Latter day backwoods and mountain men if you will.

Of course we set off with the rabbits attempting to do their thing.  Only to be promptly brought to heal by our guides.   Who then proceed to give us all some valuable instruction on how to make continuous and consistently measured progress.  i.e walk slowly and deliberately.  To ensure we did do so one of them always made sure he led from the front and set the pace.

Something else I have noticed whilst on a couple of walking holidays in the Italian mountains.  The groups naturally broke up into 3 ability determined sub groups.  The greyhounds way out ahead.  The majority in the middle heard and then there are the back markers – fitness problems.  What I noticed about the greyhounds was a certain degree of machismo and trying to prove something.  For the record I was in the middle heard.
 
Having said that its not something I have really noticed on our South Downs Society walks.  Maybe the mountainous terrain in Italy had quite an influence – varying fitness levels again.

adi

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Re: Unreasonable expectations
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2012, 01:13:52 PM »
I think the saying is 'Less haste, more speed'
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

Callum

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Re: Unreasonable expectations
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2012, 01:01:12 PM »
Maybe if Hugh’s ladies had been meeting Prince of Wales, the heir-apparent to the Throne, they would have arrived 15 mins early rather than late. In all likelihood, they would probably have arrived hours earlier  ;)  Read on…

We have spent a great deal of time determining the optimum size for groups. In terms of GL (Group Leader) ratio to pupils and this is driven by two principal considerations in this order:

1. Safety
2. Meeting the objectives of the specific activity

We offer a broad range of participative activities, ranging from kayaking to bouldering, for the purposes of this discussion I will limit our conclusions to our fell walking pursuits.

The first remit for group’s safety, is that everyone in the group is equally aware and understands the risks, and secondly, that everyone in the group complies with the instructions from the leader/instructor.

Across the age range we work with, 11-18 years, an interesting observation soon became apparent, the younger the pupils then the larger the group could be in terms of them all following instructions, the older the group, the more they understood the risks, yet these two findings were inversely proportional. So from the outset it was balancing these factors as we often have groups with mixed ages.

Both of these factors are, to a great deal, dependent upon the level of expectancy, for what they are going to undertake, and the level of enthusiasm to participate.

These are the conclusions of our work and how we have put them into practice. We explain the following to all students, then we tell them it again and we summarise by telling them again In all seriousness, they are given details prior to coming to the centre by their teacher/carer, when  they arrive during the welcome ceremony and then by the GLs when they come to choose their activities.

All students have the ability to either choose to participate or decline any activity whatsoever, with the clear provision that once an activity has been selected, they cannot then swap to another, however they can drop out, for whatever reason, either before or during the activity, if safe to do so, but cannot then join another activity simultaneously running.

Each GL is introduced to the specific group by a colleague, who talks about the GL and why they are the best person to lead the group.

The GL then assigns different responsibilities to individual group members, from aspects of safety to helping navigate.

This format works well for us, sometimes we get what we call a ‘rogue group’, but usually when we post analyse the group, we find that we could have negated any problems that arose, if we had split and mixed the individuals with other groups doing the same activity.

Lyle Brotherton

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Re: Unreasonable expectations
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2012, 09:08:01 AM »
The following is the format that I use for the courses I run, which vary from 2-5 days continuous instruction.

My limit is 6 students, no matter what the terrain for the outside instruction, and this practical instruction always follows a classroom session; my optimum number is 4 students. These small groups are paired, so the minimum number is two.

The reason that I pair people is that I get them to instruct and explain to their buddy what they have learned – most of my teaching methods are based upon Feuerstein.

Both my professional courses, as in the ones I am paid for, and the training delivered to volunteer SAR (Search and Rescue) teams, that is delivered free of charge, are run in the same way.

The classroom session always start very formally, where I immediately establish that I am the instructor and that they have to follow my instructions. I do this in a number of ways, such as when the students enter the classroom, I determine where they sit. The first class always begins by me asking them individually what they expect to gain from the course. I then mirror this, telling them what I expect of them, including classroom/outdoor protocol. I question individuals, during the lecture, about what I have just said and asking them to interpret and explain its relevance to the course objectives. Everything that I deliver is done so with enthusiasm.

I firmly believe that as the Instructor and outside Party Leader, you need to be in complete control. Safety is a given, the importance being that they have a limited period of time to achieve their learning objectives. As the course proceeds I relax my style, having already established control.

For the profession students, who range from senior police officers to experienced members of the Special Forces, the information that they learn on these courses will not only help them perform in their respective roles better, it may well save their lives, so student motivation is always very high.

Volunteer SAR responders are always giving up their free time to attend a course, which is specifically relevant to the team they dedicate their time to, again, student motivation is always high; I have nothing but the utmost respect for these people.

Only once has this system failed. I had been asked by a good friend to take a party on the hill for a day’s introduction to map and compass work, as he was ill and could not do so. They were members of the general public and frankly to this day I have no idea why 2 of the group, 7 in total, had signed up for the course. At lunch this pair announced that they needed to be back at the car park – we were in the Cairngorms – by 1500hrs, as they needed to drive quite a distance to go to friends for dinner (the course hours had been advertised 0900-1700hrs). We were around 1 ½ hours from the car park and it would have been unsafe for them to navigate back alone. They refused to stay and set off on their own after lunch, leaving me with no alternative but to accompany them, with the rest of the group. This was the only and last time I have trained members of the public!
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 11:19:38 AM by Lyle Brotherton »
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Pete McK

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Re: Unreasonable expectations
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2012, 03:44:00 PM »
As a teacher, pupil ratios and group dynamics really interest me. My own school’s policy, is a maximum teacher/pupil ratio of 1:10 on field trips, irrespective of their age and ability and this works well.

Observations

1.   Hugh, taking responsibility for many more students than this (1:10), is in my opinion an unwise risk. That an event has not as yet occurred does not negate this.
2.   Does your low ratio Lyle reflect an intensive course?
3.   Cal, we could really benefit from your findings at our school, have you written them up into a procedures document and if so, could I get a copy please?

« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 04:17:40 PM by Pete McK »

Lyle Brotherton

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Re: Unreasonable expectations
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2012, 05:52:53 PM »
Hold on Pete, do I detect envy here?

You get to take 10 spotty teenagers onto the hill, I get to take 6 hairy ar** soldiers onto the hill, and Hugh gets to take 40 foreign ladies there – am I missing something ;)
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Hugh Westacott

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Re: Unreasonable expectations
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2012, 06:59:39 AM »
Hold on Pete, do I detect envy here?

You get to take 10 spotty teenagers onto the hill, I get to take 6 hairy ar** soldiers onto the hill, and Hugh gets to take 40 foreign ladies there – am I missing something ;)

Lyle has got me into deep trouble with my wife! She knows that I take twenty lovely ladies walking but knew nothing of the additional twenty; she has now accused me of hiding the truth from her.

Envy is one of the seven deadly sins and manifests itself most obviously when I take twenty of my lovely ladies on overnight walking trips. They like their fleshpots so we always stay at upmarket hotels where they love to dress-up for dinner, and some dress to kill. I can read the minds of the other, mostly male, guests who are asking themselves what is a geriatric dwarf doing with so many beautiful women? If they are impertinent enough to express their thoughts I have two stock answers; the first is that we are Mormons and I'm taking them out for rest and refreshment; the second is that I'm their toyboy.

Hugh