Author Topic: Explorers and Landrangers  (Read 42911 times)

adi

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Re: Explorers and Landrangers
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2013, 08:59:13 PM »
OS scrapped 1:10000 base map in March 2003 it was replaced with OS VectorMap which I believe is surveyed at 1:1250 scale (it was when I worked with OS digital mapping). OS main income is from Geo mapping so they have built their system on that revenue stream. Because of that they interpolate all other mapping from that data. LandRanger and Explorer maps are a very small part of OS business and is almost insignificant in comparison to the other parts of their business. Because OS do all their mapping in a digital work space these days it makes sense for them yo work at the scales that customers want and work from there.

Back in the day when maps were drawn to 1 inch to 1 mile or 1:63,600 scale they were carved on glass, as technology has improved over the years so has the mapping conventions, for what I can tell most of the information I have read on this thread is taken from old conventions and is not accurate today. OS used to be very good at publishing it's mapping conventions but in our digital age where it is possible for anyone that is computer savvy can produce mapping, OS has over time wound back their openness on publishing their own mapping conventions. And who can blame them, after it is very business sensitive material.       

On that note Merry Christmas everyone.
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

Hugh Westacott

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Re: Explorers and Landrangers
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2013, 02:54:22 PM »
Adi:

<Back in the day when maps were drawn to 1 inch to 1 mile or 1:63,600 scale they were carved on glass, as technology has improved over the years so has the mapping conventions, for what I can tell most of the information I have read on this thread is taken from old conventions and is not accurate today. OS used to be very good at publishing it's mapping conventions but in our digital age where it is possible for anyone that is computer savvy can produce mapping, OS has over time wound back their openness on publishing their own mapping conventions. And who can blame them, after it is very business sensitive material.>

I'm afraid that I could not follow all of this. I'm not aware that 1:63360 maps were ever 'carved in glass'. During the long history of the 1:63360 series, several methods of printing were used beginning with engraving on copper. Are you referring to the introduction of photozincography in 1855 where negatives were made on glass plates and then exposed to light sensitive paper (see Ordnance Survey; Map Makers to Britain since 1791 by Owen & Pilbeam page 59?

What exactly do you mean by the term 'mapping conventions'? Also, I'm sure that we would all find it helpful if you would indicate which statements on this thread you believe to be inaccurate and supply the documentary evidence that supports your view.

Best wishes to everyone for 2014 and let's all keep on navigating, discussing and exploring!

Hugh

The proper pursuit of accuracy should not be confused with pedantry. Horace

Lyle Brotherton

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Re: Explorers and Landrangers
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2013, 04:41:43 PM »
Hi Hugh, this information was obtained from Ordnance Survey (last September 2013) following a request to them for any general or specific procedure or guidance used by cartographers on the specification of contours on their 1:25 000 and 1:50 000 maps, to which they provided two documents relating to the cartographer’s instructions relative to contours on these maps; extracts of which I posted.
“Opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance” - Plato

adi

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Re: Explorers and Landrangers
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2013, 09:26:02 PM »
All 1:63360 series and the early 1:50000 maps were all engraved on glass. These were the original master maps. They were not exactly carved in glass but where etched. Glass is very stable, more so than copper or zink. These glass maps were made by coating the glass with wax and then scribing the information in the the wax. From this the plates are photographed to make the zinc printing plates. The glass is then acid etched to be kept in the archive . My dear friend and OS glass engraver Clive Norris worked for OS until the late 70's.

When I needed historical mapping for a customer I would ring the archive and one of the to old gentlemen that worked there would go and find the corresponding map within the date range that was required and a couple of days later I would receive a paper copy of the map. This archive has been completely digitised now and the complete contents of the archive has been transferred to English Heritage. I worked on scanning a very small percentage of the archive. 

I have just come across this video from 1953 which shows an over view of map making by OS. I have sent a link of it to Clive to see if he features in it.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTt0cgOO_ag" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTt0cgOO_ag</a>
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

adi

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Re: Explorers and Landrangers
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2013, 09:39:21 PM »
In contrast here is a short video of how it is done more recently

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nVY4OHoiS8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nVY4OHoiS8</a>
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

adi

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Re: Explorers and Landrangers
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2013, 09:43:44 PM »
Here is the Formal notice of withdrawal of 1:10000 Scale Raster mapping

http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/docs/legal-notices/10k-raster-notice-to-withdraw.pdf
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

adi

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Re: Explorers and Landrangers
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2013, 09:54:37 PM »
And finally here is an info-graphic of how it is done today, Notice the surveyor at 20 seconds is working on MasterMap at 1:1250 scale. MasterMap used to be known as BaseMap and its name has swapped between the two on numerous occasions over time. I know when I worked with OS I found it hard to keep up with all the name changes of products.   

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlHgEFN8JKY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlHgEFN8JKY</a>
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

krenaud

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Re: Explorers and Landrangers
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2013, 10:56:32 AM »
Reading your posts I become very envious as it was just two years ago that the whole of Sweden became available in 1:50000 as opposed to 1:100000. When it comes to mapping for the public Sweden is a third world country.

1:10000 mapping for the public only comes digitally via Garmin at a price of SEK300 (£29) per square kilometer. Finland otoh have 1:20000 maps at a very reasonable
price.

Callum

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Re: Explorers and Landrangers
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2013, 01:00:11 PM »
Great videos Adi - such an interesting subject. I bet the OS could sell those original plates to collectors for a fortune, I would hand one on my wall - subject to the management allowing me;)

I know the difficulty you face Krenaud, when we visited Iceland the best we could find were 1:100k maps!

Hugh Westacott

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Re: Explorers and Landrangers
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2013, 03:54:41 PM »
Many thanks, Adi, for all that helpful information!

I've never come across a reference to glass being used for the ‘master’ plate from which photographs were made and then transferred for zinc plates for offset litho printing. As you know, I tend to live in the past and had not realized that the glass process had replaced the electrotyping of the engraved copper 'masters'.

I'm still trying to grasp the concept and application of digital mapping. After long conversations with my clever son, who has a masters degree in computer science, I think I've grasped the basics which I''ve set out in simple terms below and would be grateful to anyone who could confirm that I've at last got it into my thick head.

1   A vector is a series of mathematical coordinates to which values can be attached.
2   The OS has a digital MasterMap of Great Britain in vector format at a scale of 1:1250 which is constantly revised and updated by surveyors using hand held computers.
3   The MasterMap data can be manipulated so that it can be ‘instructed’ to produce the data required for a map of the required scale e.g.1:10,000, 1:25,000 and 1:50,000 which can then be printed.
4   1:25,000 and 1:50,000 maps were originally sourced from the 1:10,000 map but nowadays from the MasterMap.
5   The 1:10,000 map can be ordered in sheet form from a limited number of OS agents.

Phew!

Hugh

The proper pursuit of accuracy should not be confused with pedantry. Horace

Hugh Westacott

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Re: Explorers and Landrangers
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2013, 04:13:26 PM »
Hi Hugh, this information was obtained from Ordnance Survey (last September 2013) following a request to them for any general or specific procedure or guidance used by cartographers on the specification of contours on their 1:25 000 and 1:50 000 maps, to which they provided two documents relating to the cartographer’s instructions relative to contours on these maps; extracts of which I posted.

Thanks for this, Lyle.

Just a couple of points. I really would love to know the angle of slope that determines whether the 5 or 10-metre contour is employed on Explorers.

I'm not entirely convinced that the OS has supplied you with the latest information about the sourcing of contour values from 1:10560 maps on the Landranger maps of Scotland that you listed for the reasons that I posted. I intend to check with my OS contact.

Best wishes for the New Year!

Hugh

The proper pursuit of accuracy should not be confused with pedantry. Horace

captain paranoia

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Re: Explorers and Landrangers
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2013, 05:16:18 PM »
Hugh, if you're trying to understand the distinction between vector and raster mapping, then I'd suggest thinking of vector mapping as a description of a picture, and raster as an actual picture constructed from a set of dots.

Vector descriptions can be interpreted by some tool, to create a picture, or for all sorts of other reasons.  Essentially, a vector description is, as you say, a collection of numerical values, and some means of identifying what those numbers represent.  In the simplest vector notation, each element would be simply a line between two points, in 2 or 3 dimensional space.  More sophisticated vector notations could include complex shapes such as arcs, circles or curves, etc.

Many of the graphics formats use vector notation, such as PostScript or SVG.

Given a vector notation, you need a rendering engine to convert the notation to a picture that can be displayed or printed.  Now, whilst some of the earliest computer graphics terminals used vector displays, almost all are now raster-based; that includes laser and inkjet printers and televisions.

The OS might use a bespoke geographical information system (GIS) to enter and manipulate mapping data, but at some point they'll need a rendering engine, with rules to determine how features are drawn.  This may be bespoke, too, or it may be one of the various GIS systems available.  Even then, I bet there's still a lot of human manipulation of the various 'layers' of information that are drawn on a map; where place names are put, for instance.

In rendering a map at different scales, different amounts of detail will be used; e.g. a 1:10k will show more 'crinkles' than a 1:50k map.  There are various techniques for 'point thinning', or simplifying lines, and you might be familiar with them from GPX import functions of mapping tools such as WheresThePath.

adi

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Re: Explorers and Landrangers
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2013, 01:35:45 PM »
Hugh your summing up is sort of correct in a very simplistic scenes. OS supplies can supply hard copy Raster mapping in 1.500, 1.1250, 1.2500, 1.5000, 1.10000, 1.25000, 1.50000, 1.2500000 scale maps and a number of specialised scales usually confined to that used by government departments and agency's. Rasterised images are basically any image, drawing or photo that is made up by dots or pixels. So a painting that is painted with a paint brush is a raster image. If you wanted to view it in a computer or any viewing platform you would need to scan or photograph the painting to turn it into a digital image. Depending on the resolution it is scanned or photographed at determines the size of the image that can be viewed. For instance if you tried enlarging the image by say 400% the image will start losing definition and will look fuzzy or of viewing on a computer the image will look pixelated.   
 
1   A vector is a series of mathematical coordinates to which values can be attached.
2   The OS has a digital MasterMap of Great Britain in vector format at a scale of 1:1250 which is constantly revised and updated by surveyors using hand held computers.
3   The MasterMap data can be manipulated so that it can be ‘instructed’ to produce the data required for a map of the required scale e.g.1:10,000, 1:25,000 and 1:50,000 which can then be printed.
4   1:25,000 and 1:50,000 maps were originally sourced from the 1:10,000 map but nowadays from the MasterMap.
5   The 1:10,000 map can be ordered in sheet form from a limited number of OS agents.

A vector graphic uses math to draw shapes using points, lines and curves. So the best way to think of them are as Plans or technical drawings. They are infinitely scalable so do not lose resolution i.e. however you scale them they do not pixelate.

I was approached by the MOD to produce an impact risk assessment mapping for the Type 45 radar facility that was being built on Portsdown hill, Portsmouth. Their need was for 1.1250 mapping to a radius of 5 miles from the radar and a second at 1.5000 scale to 25 miles radius from the radar. The 1.5000 version was as a Raster map printed on paper to be copied and viewed in meetings and the like. The 1.1250 scale mapping was as a vector map that they could keep on their systems, which could be viewed at  1 to 1 scale if necessary and could be precisely marked and annotated. If a piece of paper was produced large enough it would be possible to print out a paper map at 1 to 1 scale.

To partly answer Captain Paranoia if I remember correctly OS uses bespoke software that is a plug in to AutoCad. This allows mapping to be viewed in Plan or 3D and is built on layers, which can be turned on and off. There are many many layers that the public will never be privy too. One of the most interesting I have seen is Mortar Base Plates, firing radiuses and shrapnel radiuses, in and around London. I have also seen the layer for the air defense assets that were deployed in London for the Olympics.   
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 03:35:50 PM by adi »
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

adi

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Re: Explorers and Landrangers
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2013, 02:21:28 PM »
One of the advantages of vector maps is that it is made up of layers that can be turned on and off. And there is nothing stopping customers editing any layer or adding their own layers. This is what allowed geographical information systems (GIS) to born. GIS is used in every part of planning our lives. Everything from planning land use, food production, product distribution, planning building projects, distribution networks, emergency services even disaster management.

The list is endless and it is a growth industry. Basically any information that can be collected and added to any point on earth is a GIS. Google maps is probably one of the best known ones, they have set up mapping to show the spread of diseases, changes in demographics, tracking migration of both people and animals and so on. Yet there are many GIS systems in every imaginable  industry.   
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche

adi

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Re: Explorers and Landrangers
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2013, 04:45:28 PM »
I was under the impression contours were 5 meters on all 1.25000 and 10 meters on 1.50000. Is this no longer the case. I do know contours only appear on 1.10000, 1.25000 and 1.50000 scale maps. 1.250000 scale maps shows relief by shading incremented at 200, 600, 1000, 1400, 2000 and 3000 feet. 1.500, 1.1250, 1.2500 and 1.5000 show height as spot heights at datum points which are called Benchmarks and are accurate to 0.1m.

Today the UK is surveyed at 25 meters and the 5 meter contours are approximates. Benchmarks can be physical datum points that are surveyed into the landscape, usually marked on buildings or semi permanent structures. These are no longer updated. But modern datum points can be seen on roads and foot paths of urban areas as a metal stud that has been hammered into the ground, these sometimes have a yellow washer attached but not always. In rural areas these datum points are normally found on roads and are located at the center of manhole covers or other obvious feature. 

Datum points are surveyed and as I said are accurate to 0.1m. But there are also other spot heights known as Air heights which are accurate to 1 meter, these are captured by photogrammetry and are usually shown on hilltops, river crossings and valley junctions among other places.

However there are approximately 190 Benchmarks that are maintained known as Ordnance Datum Newlyn (ODN) and are marked on the ground as fundamental bench marks (FBMs) these are very important and as such their locations are restricted for commercial and security reasons. One of their uses was in the creation of the orthometric to GPS height correction model.
   
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 04:59:57 PM by adi »
"We do not belong to those who only get their thought from books, or at the prompting of books - it is our custom to think in the open air, walking, leaping, climbing or dancing, of lonesome mountains by preference, or close to the sea, where even the paths become thoughtful." Friedrich Nietzsche