New topics

[Lyle Brotherton]

Just before I venture off again tomorrow - only Yorkshire this time - I thought it would be good to poll opinion for a few subject headers I have been thinking of:

Training tips - I have had quite a few emails from folk asking about different ways of delivering nav training, from groups as diverse as Cub Packs to Gold DofE and I know that some of you guys will have some great experience to bring to this too.

Trips - not as in slips and falls but journeys that we all make, from a day on a Munro to a mini-expedition.

I will create these if you like plus any other suggestions please.

Right, rucksack to pack!

[dave]

Thats sounds a plan Lyle and give my best to gods own county Yorkshire Two types of folk,those from Yorkshire and those who wish they were

[Lyle Brotherton]

Visiting your wonderful county tomorrow to give a presentation - Black Sheep beer on the menu afterwards me thinks

I often meet an old guy, called Tom, aged 72, climbing up the mountain behind my house, and we stop and blether. One time I had been telling him about my recent travels and how I longed to be at home and he replied, very earnestly "A day away from Hawick is a day lost forever!"

[MalcolmHandoll]

How about tales of epics or navigation gone wrong?
We learn from our and others mistakes, so lets share stories.

Cheers!

[Lyle Brotherton]

Malcolm, I could write a book about the times I have gone wrong

Great topic will add to the list, this one should put some smileson all of our faces

[Hugh Westacott]

I've often wondered whether there is a case for standardizing technical terms not just for navigation alone but also for walking terms generally. British terminology sometimes differs from American. Perhaps we could compile a list. Here are some examples some of which are taken from Lyle's book:

Baseplate compass or orientering compass?
Mirror compass or prismatic compass? What is a marching compass?
Square search or spiral search?
Hillwalking or fell walking (I suspect that fellwalking is only used in England)?
Magnetic declination or magnetic variation?
Backpack or rucksack?
Anyone have a definition for ultralightweight backpacking?

I could go on...

Hugh

[Pete McK]

Great idea Hugh, I like this subject a great deal, having found differences even north and south in our Sceptred Isle, from Knoll to Bealach, plus my experience with my German friend and micronavigation posted on another thread in this forum. So yes please lets make this an entire subject.

[Lyle Brotherton]

Folks, I go tomorrow down to the Peak District to present at the Mountain Rescue England Wales - National Water Conference, and will create these headings when back on Monday - some great subjects!

[adi]

Baseplate compass or orienteering compass? They are different types of compass
Mirror compass or prismatic compass? again they are different types of compass
Square search or spiral search? They are different search patterns
Magnetic declination or magnetic variation? Because they describe two different things

[Hugh Westacott]

Baseplate compass or orienteering compass? They are different types of compass
Mirror compass or prismatic compass? again they are different types of compass
Square search or spiral search? They are different search patterns
Magnetic declination or magnetic variation? Because they describe two different things

Thanks, Adj, but can we have some definitions, please? Frankly, I've never heard of the term 'baseplate compass' before reading UNM. I've checked the dozen or so books in my library that deal with navigational topics but not one of them mentions them. Is it a military term?

Best wishes

Hugh

[adi]

Not a problem, I will start at the beginning of what is classed as modern compasses.

To start with Field compasses, a magnetic needle in a brass housing with no markings on it. The compass only pointed north. To be able to use it with any accuracy you needed to use a separate protractor. The same way you would use a survival button compass today.

The prismatic compass which was patented in 1885 as the Hand Compass uses a prism to read the bearing whilst sight the heading of geographical landmark. These compasses are often known as spotting or marching compass.

Similar to the prismatic compass is the lensatic compass other than not having a prism and using a sighting hole to look at the heading of geographical landmark and you have to physically slightly look downwards to see the bearing. These are not as accurate as the prismatic compass but are still used by the US military, they solved the accuracy issues by including electromagnetic induction to freeze the needle so you can move the compass and read the bearing.
 
The mirror compass was patented in 1902 placing a mirror above the compass allowing the user to look at the heading of geographical landmark whilst reading the bearing on the compass.
 
In 1928, Gunnar Tillander patented the baseplate compass. This combined the field compass and protractor into one single unit.  For his favourite sport, orienteering. Originally the base plate only contained the lubber line, which later became known as the direction of travel indicator. Later still romers were added along with rulers, magnifying lens and the like. This is often wrongly called the orienteering compass because the three men were all very keen participants.

In 1932 Gunnar teamed up with Björn and Alvar Kjellström and formed a company called Silva.

Later Silva developed the orienteering compass. The first models were similar to the baseplate compass but had far less information or bearings on them, over time colour segments replaced the bearing marks or they just made them completely clear. Orienteering compasses are quite specialised for the sport and although they are used outside the sport they do not replace the need for a baseplate compass because their primary use is just to orientate the map to magnetic north.  They have shrunk in size and many have turned into thumb compasses which attach to your thumb so it is always where you need it as you move rapidly over the terrain. As far as I am aware these have never been patented because people were making them themselves from survival button compasses.

Orienteering compasses do have a use outside of orienteering. Especially if you only walk on paths, tracks and roads  by allowing you to orientate your map to magnetic north to follow routes from the map.  They can be used to walk on a bearing once you know the direction of travel determined from a bearing taken from your baseplate compass but should be only used by the experienced navigator. Note you still need the baseplate compass with you to get the bearing and direction of travel.   

[adi]

When you say Square search I think you mean the Expanding Spiral Search. Where your search pattern is head a distance from the start point then turns 90° travel twice the distance of the first line of travel then turn 90° and so on. This is often confused with walking in an ever expanding circular spiral which is in fact a search pattern used by aircraft for searching mountains.

Over the ocean or relatively flat land aircraft use a base line or creeping line search.   

[Hugh Westacott]

Adj

Many thanks for your comprehensive reply. I'm busy leading walks this weekend so this is an interim response.

I seem to have opened a can of worms! I've been walking seriously in all parts of Great Britain since the the 40s. My career was in librarianship and I've been on the fringe of the publishing world. In my study I have  a large collection of 'how to' books on walking and I'm interested in maps and land navigation, but would not claim to be more than averagely competent route-finder although I've read widely in the subject.

I've never served in the military nor have I been a member of a search and rescue team or ever had to call on the mountain rescue service. This leads me to speculate that the military and/or search and rescue teams sometimes use different technical terms from the generality of walkers. You use the term 'expanding spiral search' as does Eric Langmuir in 'Mountaincraft & Leadership' but Steve Long in his 'Hillwalking; the Official Handbook of the Mountain Leader and Walking Group Leader Schemes' describes the technique as a 'spiral search but Wally Keay in "Land Navigation; Routefinding with Map & Compass' published by the Duke of Edinburgh Award Scheme calls it a 'square search'. Semantically, the term 'spiral' is incorrect because a spiral is based on curves so a more accurate description might be 'expanding square search'!

Hugh

[Hugh Westacott]

Adj

I've done some research and considered your comments carefully and the only conclusion I've come to is that the technical terms in general use to describe the compasses used by walkers are confusing and contradictory! So let's try and make some sense of the problem from the standpoint of a walker who has not served in the military, knows nothing of search and rescue techniques, and has never done any orienteering.

If I understand you correctly, you seem to be implying that the term 'orienteering compass' should be applied only to the original non-baseplate compass originally developed by Silva (Type 19L). However, according to Compass Point (http://www.compasspoint-online.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_Orienteering_THumb_compasses.html), the supplier recommended by the British Orienteering Federation, there are many other Silva compasses used by orienteers including the models regularly used by walkers. I've never seen a Type 19L on the shelf of an outdoor shop and surmise that they are only available from specialist suppliers. So I conclude that it is legitimate to describe, what you term a 'baseplate compass', as an 'orienteering compass'.

I've examined the following books for the terms that they use when describing what you call a 'baseplate compass':

Terry Adby & Stuart Johnston, 'The Hillwalker's Guide to Mountaineering'.
Pete, 'Map & Compass; the Art of Navigation.
Wally Keay 'Land Navigation; Routefinding with Map & Compass'.
Eric Langmuir, 'Mountaincraft & Leadership'.
Steve Long, 'Hillwalking; the Official Handbook of the Mountain Leader and Walking Group Leader Schemes'.
Julian Tippett, 'Navigation for Walkers'.
Kevin Walker, 'Mountain Navigation Techniques' & 'The Essential Hillwalkers' Guide'.
Hugh Westacott, 'The Walker's handbook' & 'The Encyclopaedia of Walking & Backpacking'.
John G. Wilson, 'Follow the Map; the Ordnance Survey Guide'.

Here are the results:
Adby & Johnston: 'compass' with an illustration of a Silva Type 4.
Hawkins: 'protractor compass'.
Keay: 'orienteering or protractor type compass'.
Langmuir: describes the features required in a compass suitable for hillwalking with an illustration of the Silva Type 4.
Long: 'walking compass' with a generic drawing based on a Silva Type 4.
Tippett: 'protractor (or baseplate').
Walker: 'protractor compasses or orienteering compasses'.
Westacott: 'orienteering compass'.
Wilson: 'compass' with an illustration of a Silva Type 4.

From this survey, I conclude that the two most popular terms in general use are 'protractor compass' and 'orienteering compass' with only one mention of 'baseplate compass' and that instance is mentioned as an alternative to 'protractor'.

The next problem we shall have to consider is the confused terminology used to describe the more sophisticated versions of orienteering compasses (sighting, prismatic, mirror etc). But that is for another post!

Hugh

[adi]

In my experience most authors do not research the tools they use when writing a book on navigation. They just name the tools that they are used to using and use the name for it that they know it by.

But I think that if a baseplate compass has been named and described in a patent then that is a baseplate compass. The military has a long tradition of passing information down the centuries and if they started using baseplate compasses in the 1930's you can be assured it was called a baseplate compass and is still called a baseplate compass. Who says any of your listed authors are correct. Silva Type 4 is a registered name for a product and nothing more. It does not mean that the Type 4 is and the only base plate compass.

Why get caught up in the semantics of what it’s called? I will put a spanner in the works for you. I call them 'bloody things' most of the time. The important thing is, to become familiar with it, hold it, caress it, come at one with it and look after it, and if you are that way inclined, name the 'Bloody Thing'. The important thing is to learn how to use the ‘bloody thing’ and then, and only then, will it be a true friend and help you out when you are in need.